C in the air: the electric car, and fast!

[Christophe]

C in the special electric car air (special Elec?) And Geneva show 2009 to see here: http://www.france5.fr/c-dans-l-air/econ ... vite-31629

Here are the 2 mini reports:

BlueCar Pininfarina

The myth of the electric car?

Elec, do not look at the 2ieme!

[I Citro]

Despite a catastrophic speed I made the effort to watch the show online ...

AFFLIGENT!
The guests of Yves CALVI:
- Jean SYROTA, "energy expert": whose report (downloadable from the econology site) was buried by the government last fall.
He is well known for his conservatism and his "anti-electric" stance.

- Laurent CARROUE, Geographer: gives a partial analysis of the geopolitical context, I did not understand his role in this program.

- Pascal PENNEC, assistant editor of autoplus: plays the role of the candid of service ...

- Nicolas LE FRANCOIS, autojournal's current head column: behind a technician's speech, did not hesitate to assemble some big lies, his speech and clearly pro oil ...

I give you some of the pearls that I have noticed from each other:
- 1000km is possible with diesel 40kg, it is impossible in electric.
Do we need 1000km of autonomy?

- The CO2 emissions of the prius are not those announced from the tank to the wheel but rather 130g from the well to the wheel.
M. LE FRANCOIS seems to add to the CO2 balance sheet of the prius energy it would take on the electricity network while it is not connected to the electricity network.

- Diesel engines emit less CO2 than the CO2 balance sheet of electric cars.
No mention was made of other ultra-harmful pollutants not emitted by electric cars ...

- The thermal still has a huge margin of progress.
Of course, the electric can not progress ...

- Lithium fuel is not available in sufficient quantity.
But oil, uranium, if. Mr SYROTA even said that uranium can be extracted from seawater (which also contains more lithium than uranium) ... Moreover, must I remind this "expert" that lithium is not a fuel but a storage medium for an energy called: ELECTRICITY.

- The batteries of the PSA and Renault electric cars were worth 25000 €, and they had to be changed after 2ans.
Even at the prohibitive price of 600 € charged by Peugeot in new on the scoot'élec, we reach 12000 €, and they can last more than 10ans
(mine dropped after 12ans)

This show was a tartufferie!
All the "faults" or errors as such in the electric car have been reviewed.
Then, all the "advantages" of the thermal car were glorified. : Evil:

They flew over hybrids and ignored innovative solutions such as Better Place. Of course no hint was made to the ability to perform fast loads with the new battery technologies.

[Elec]

This show was of a very low level (it surprised me from Yves Calvi). And the reflection remained very French-French, absolutely nothing about innovations in Oregon, California, Hawaii, Arizona, Tennesse, Tokyo, Denmark, Israel, Australia, Ontario and British Columbia.

And nothing (!) On the French government project (group purchase of 100 000 electric cars by major accounts, launching the reflection on the establishment of a charging infrastructure). This type of commission testifies that this program was not serious.

All focused on the car 1.0 (electric car all alone), absolutely nothing about the car 2.0 (electric car in a smart charging network + business model appropriate).

To summarize, they discussed the future of the electric car by posing the problem in this way:
Does a gasoline car have a future in a country where there are no gas stations?
Is a mobile phone useful in a country without a relay antenna to transmit the waves?
Absurd.

The added value of the interventions of the 2 "journalists" was really zero. Surprisingly flat.
They remained stuck in the reasoning specific to the thermal car and demonstrated that they were unable to integrate the new approaches to the theme (either out of ignorance but this is serious for journalism professionals, or by inability to integrate new ways of thinking, both).

A program of much better quality:

"The future of the car" - On BFM TV
http://www.electron-economy.org/article-27395630.html

[I Citro]

Oh, I cracked and got them on their forum to say what I thought.

[Elec]

I will also give my opinion on the forum of the show as well as on my blog.

It is done - And it's done.

[I Citro]

The myth of the electric car?

Elec, do not look at the 2ieme!

The conclusion of the latest report with Bentley that sticks to its traditions make me think of the history of the French brand of luxury automobiles that have not evolved after World War II and all diparu (Bugatti, Delahaye, Delage, Hispano Suiza, Talbot, Hotchkiss ...)

[Christophe]

: arrow: Despite a catastrophic speed I made the effort to watch the show online ...

AFFLIGENT!

+1

I haven't watched the debate yet, but when Mr Syrota (presented as an "energy expert" and author of the famous Syrota report) says that the energy density of petroleum fuels is 50 times higher than batteries, it is necessary "just" an error of a factor of at least 2 since reality is closer to 120 than 50...

Indeed; a VERY good battery is 0.1 kWh / kg (that of the bluecar for example) and fuel oil is in the 12 kWh / kg ...

Good after it should take into account the engine conversion efficiency but in terms of energy density, he is mistaken ...

Correcting by the yields we would find in useful mechanical kWh:

a) Electric: 85% efficiency of the battery to the wheel is 0.085 kWh / kg

b) Thermal: 20% (medium) efficiency of the tank at the wheel is 12 * 0.2 = 2.4 kWh / kg

Report: 30 about ... but it's not the energy density itself ...

ps: citroo it's you i guess on the forum from France2?

[Woodcutter]

[...]I give you some of the pearls that I have noticed from each other:
- 1000km is possible with diesel 40kg, it is impossible in electric.
Do we need 1000km of autonomy? [...]

Ben and then? Is that wrong?

[...] - The CO2 Emissions of the Prius are not those announced in the tank to wheel but rather 130g from well to wheel.
M. LE FRANCOIS seems to add to the CO2 balance sheet of the prius energy it would take on the electricity network while it is not connected to the electricity network. [...]

Yes, that one was au gratin, and no one noticed ...

[...] - Diesel engines emit less CO2 than the CO2 balance sheet of electric cars.
No mention was made of other ultra-harmful pollutants not emitted by electric cars ... [...]

Which does not prevent that if we limit ourselves to the only CO2, this affirmation remains true!

[...] - The thermal still has a huge margin of progress.
Of course, the electric can not progress ... [...]

Ben is a reality ... An electric motor that has a yield of 0.9 or a little more can not really progress ...
For thermals, the room for maneuver is still much higher (unfortunately, we could say, because this fact allows them to keep their attractiveness, at least currently). Just see the work undertaken by Mercedes on his Diesotto for example, or by the Lyon company MCE-5 on the engine with variable compression ratio.

[...] - The batteries of electric cars PSA and Renault were worth 25000 €, and it was necessary to change them after 2ans. [...]

25 000 francs, not € uros. For the two years, I do not know where they were looking for that ... Maybe a very bad use on the part of the drivers of the fleet vehicles?

[...] Of course no hint was made to the possibility of carrying out fast loads with the new battery technologies. [/ B]

I am not sure that at present, the batteries allowing to carry out real fast charges really exist ... We see a lot of "projet" and of "concept"but not really real ... For terminals that would allow that, it's the same.
And since you raise that question, I already asked a question based elsewhere but received no answer: what are the possible effects on humans currents required for fast charging (5 minutes) batteries for, like the BlueCar for example, a range of 250 km?

[Elec]

Christophe,

A VERY good battery is 200 Wh / Kg, not 100.

(...) the energy density of lithium batteries, which reach 200Wh / kg the best. Small gains are certainly still possible but to obtain a significant improvement in the autonomy of an electric vehicle for example it is necessary to introduce a technological break. lithium air, which uses the oxygen of the air to operate, could bring this break. Indeed, its energy density can potentially reach 2000Wh / kg 10 times more than lithium-ion batteries.

http://www-instn.cea.fr/Publication_Suj ... ubrique=70

Above, Syrota is not mistaken.

[Christophe]

Yet that of the BlueCar is given to be revolutionary is only 100 Wh / kg ...

By cons what is interesting in the link is this:

The Lithium-air battery, which uses oxygen from the air to operate, could bring this break. Indeed its energy density can potentially reach 2000Wh / kg is 10 times more than lithium-ion batteries.

In this case, it would be an ACTUAL energy density (to be confused with the brute who would be 12 / 2 6 =) of 2.4 / 1.7 1.4 = heat engine is only 30% less!

Excellent but still Science Fiction !!