Ban on new thermal cars in 2035: Germany changes its mind!

Transport and new transport: energy, pollution, engine innovations, concept car, hybrid vehicles, prototypes, pollution control, emission standards, tax. not individual transport modes: transport, organization, carsharing or carpooling. Transport without or with less oil.
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Re: Ban on new thermal cars in 2035: Germany changes its mind!




by NCSH » 28/03/23, 00:40

sicetaitsimple wrote:
NCSH wrote:[
Sorry for not responding immediately....

Thank you for this list of projects and announcements, but that was not the question!

Most technical and economic studies are in the hands of multinationals, and therefore inaccessible.
And for the moment, it is radio silence on the official agencies side.
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Re: Ban on new thermal cars in 2035: Germany changes its mind!




by Obamot » 28/03/23, 03:24

Ahmed wrote:Well, we must all the same recognize in projects like Désertec a certain taste of colonialist deja vu which is likely to arouse less enthusiasm among the obligated suppliers of energy than among users who are not too shy about the armholes...
nothing is less certain, such projects encourage the development of a country's "technological culture" in cutting-edge sectors. Is it negligible?

For example, there are 3 solar power plants in Morocco, a 4th is under construction Nothing FOR EXPORT. As it stands, it therefore exclusively benefits the country. There is a positive point is that Morocco must overcome the problems of terrorism but the risks are much less important than for nuclear power. The blow of the kilowatt-hour is about 30% more canceled than expected but it remains anecdotal. Concentrating power plants will be required to meet the load factor. I think that in the end, the solution will be that the inhabitants who want power by "wasting it in the evening" or at night, will pay the price it will take... So much more expensive, which will bring in these installations in black numbers. Otherwise and more economically, individuals who can, will afford batteries for buffer storage (even with their own solar installations on their roofs...) And finally, as my uncle said, stop the frantic way of life, "the night is made for sleeping..."

I would see the development of Na-ion batteries in these areas? I don't know what our specialists think about it.
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Re: Ban on new thermal cars in 2035: Germany changes its mind!




by sicetaitsimple » 28/03/23, 10:29

Remundo wrote:...

So let's get to raw power.
...
Or something of the order of 60 GW.


I have the impression that you have confused power and energy, if the map is representative of the average annualized solar power.
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Re: Ban on new thermal cars in 2035: Germany changes its mind!




by NCSH » 28/03/23, 11:11

Obamot wrote:
Ahmed wrote:Well, we must all the same recognize in projects like Désertec a certain taste of colonialist deja vu which is likely to arouse less enthusiasm among the obligated suppliers of energy than among users who are not too shy about the armholes...
nothing is less certain, such projects encourage the development of a country's "technological culture" in cutting-edge sectors. Is it negligible?

For example, there are 3 solar power plants in Morocco, a 4th is under construction Nothing FOR EXPORT. As it stands, it therefore exclusively benefits the country. There is a positive point is that Morocco must overcome the problems of terrorism but the risks are much less important than for nuclear power. The blow of the kilowatt-hour is about 30% more canceled than expected but it remains anecdotal. Concentrating power plants will be required to meet the load factor. I think that in the end, the solution will be that the inhabitants who want power by "wasting it in the evening" or at night, will pay the price it will take... So much more expensive, which will bring in these installations in black numbers. Otherwise and more economically, individuals who can, will afford batteries for buffer storage (even with their own solar installations on their roofs...) And finally, as my uncle said, stop the frantic way of life, "the night is made for sleeping..."

I would see the development of Na-ion batteries in these areas? I don't know what our specialists think about it.

Indeed, several developing countries, with the financial and scientific help of the developed countries, are quite able to assimilate the technological leap represented by these new energy processes.

In a non-exhaustive way, I can quote 2 of them: in Morocco, since 2011, was created the IRESEN, with a rather broad vocation, turned towards Africa.
https://iresen.org/institut

Around the same time, we must mention KAUST, in Saudi Arabia.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universit ... i_Abdallah

These and other countries have already been preparing for the post-oil era for a decade, with the help of developed countries, Western countries, and then perhaps China, given recent political developments in the Middle East.


As for the production of electricity by thermodynamic solar power plant, the current costs are of the order of 10 c$ / kWh for the most recent projects.
In addition, in the USA, a new objective of 5/6 c$/kWh for 2030 was announced, for power plants with towers and adjustable mirrors with more than 10 hours of storage. It is the same as the one announced in 2006 by the Spaniards for their important program of that time.

We will eventually manage to have a night current in the big cities of countries with a latitude of less than 40° at a cost that individual batteries will find difficult to compete with!
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Re: Ban on new thermal cars in 2035: Germany changes its mind!




by NCSH » 28/03/23, 12:12

NCSH wrote:
sicetaitsimple wrote:
NCSH wrote:[
Sorry for not responding immediately....

Thank you for this list of projects and announcements,but that was not the question!

Most technical and economic studies are in the hands of multinationals, and therefore inaccessible.
And for the moment, it is radio silence on the official agencies side.

If, I think I can guess, the meaning of the question concerned production on the European perimeter.
The answer is always the same: it is possible, but it will be much more expensive.

Indeed, the cost of Hydrogen from off-shore wind farms in the North Sea will have difficulty falling below 3 € / kg in 2030, perhaps 2 in 2050. That is to say from electrical energy at best at 4 or 5 c€/kWh (projects for 2030 are rather higher).

Obviously, new nuclear is out of the game: at 8 or 10 c€/kWh for the future 14 EPR 2s, especially since the quantities of production will already not be sufficient for electricity in direct use...
I can't understand that Macron agrees to be ridiculed in public by defending Hydrogen from nuclear electricity!
You really have to be a box licker to believe it!


Getting back to sensible things, the Swedes are developing the world's main Hydrogen-reduced steel project publicly announced since 2018 to be able to continue making Steel with their large Kiruna Iron Mine: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrit .
By using electrical energy from onshore wind power in northern Scandinavia at 4 c€ / kWh, this induces an additional cost per tonne of primary steel of at least €100.

We cannot put protectionist barriers on everything.
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Re: Ban on new thermal cars in 2035: Germany changes its mind!




by Ahmed » 28/03/23, 12:44

Things have indeed evolved since Desertec, even if temptations remain, hence my reaction to the idea that the solution to our problems necessarily lies with the neighbor to the south without worrying whether he agrees or not...
Morocco is at the forefront when it comes to solar hydrogen for industrial purposes (steel, chemicals) which is much more consistent than use as fuel.
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Re: Ban on new thermal cars in 2035: Germany changes its mind!




by sicetaitsimple » 28/03/23, 15:30

Ahmed wrote:Morocco is at the forefront when it comes to solar hydrogen for industrial purposes (steel, chemicals) which is much more consistent than use as fuel.


Without wanting to go too far and at the risk of being wrong, I think that you are going a little too quickly in your observation, but of course I would not want my opinion to be taken too definitively...
So certainly under the impetus of "His Majesty King Mohammed VI, may God assist him,"(that's how we say), Morocco has a ""hydrogen roadmap" 2020-2050:
https://www.mem.gov.ma/Lists/Lst_rappor ... 20vert.pdf
Rather well done by the way, at least "pleasant" to read. And actually rather based on the national use of this hydrogen for industrial purposes.
Now we're going to have to hit the hill, it's still not won, even if Morocco does have assets (wind, sun) and motivations (few fossil resources, although I think I've seen recently that they have discovered offshore gas) which can only motivate him.
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Re: Ban on new thermal cars in 2035: Germany changes its mind!




by Remundo » 28/03/23, 16:28

sicetaitsimple wrote:I have the impression that you have confused power and energy, if the map is representative of the average annualized solar power.

I have proof that you are talking nonsense.

here is to convince you about ENERGIES the map of solar irradiation in kWh/year/m²

Image

In the very sunny areas that interest us, you just have to divide 2500 kWh/m2 / 8766 h and you get 285 W/m² of average power.

That is why I retained 300 W of solar power on average.

well confirmed by this map of POWERS

Image

In the Saharan areas for example, the instantaneous solar power varies between 0 and 1000 W/m², and gives an average of 300 W.

It is to avoid the day/night alternation that a tropical-equatorial BELT of solar power plants is needed.

This would also make it possible to diversify the producing areas, therefore to secure supplies, and also to reduce the length of the cables to be pulled.
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Re: Ban on new thermal cars in 2035: Germany changes its mind!




by sicetaitsimple » 28/03/23, 17:03

Remundo wrote:
sicetaitsimple wrote:I have the impression that you have confused power and energy, if the map is representative of the average annualized solar power.

I have proof that you are talking nonsense.

Uh? No.
Your two cards are actually roughly consistent, between the energy received annually (about 2500kWh/year) and the average annualized power (about 300W).
300W*8760= not far from 2500kWh.
And so your 20% efficiency, you have to apply them to 2500 to get kWh, and not kW as you say.
If you apply it to 300W, you get an average annualized power, which still makes little practical sense when it comes to solar.
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Re: Ban on new thermal cars in 2035: Germany changes its mind!




by Remundo » 28/03/23, 17:13

and go ahead, dig...

when we multiply watts by hours, we certainly do not have a power... : roll:
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