Energy consumption EP Train vs Car

Transport and new transport: energy, pollution, engine innovations, concept car, hybrid vehicles, prototypes, pollution control, emission standards, tax. not individual transport modes: transport, organization, carsharing or carpooling. Transport without or with less oil.
User avatar
sen-no-sen
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6856
Registration: 11/06/09, 13:08
Location: High Beaujolais.
x 749




by sen-no-sen » 11/08/11, 12:02

chatelot16 wrote:

the distributed engine does not do much for main lines


Yes indeed, and even for TER, even if distributed traction offers certain advantages, it especially has the disadvantage in the event of a breakdown of requesting immobilization for maintenance of the whole railcar, whereas with a locomotive the replacement is quickly realized.
Besides, on the last TER diesel equipped with truck engines, breakdowns are quite frequent it seems, and some engines give up the ghost from 400km!
Last edited by sen-no-sen the 11 / 08 / 11, 17: 07, 1 edited once.
0 x
"Engineering is sometimes about knowing when to stop" Charles De Gaulle.
Leo Maximus
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 2183
Registration: 07/11/06, 13:18
x 124




by Leo Maximus » 11/08/11, 14:48

chatelot16 wrote:the distributed engine is not used for much for the main lines ...

At Alstom we have a completely opposite opinion, the AGV will combine high speed and frequent stops, it's still interesting.

In terms of energy consumption km / passenger, the best performance is that of Maglev type trains.
0 x
User avatar
sen-no-sen
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6856
Registration: 11/06/09, 13:08
Location: High Beaujolais.
x 749




by sen-no-sen » 11/08/11, 17:05

Leo Maximus wrote:
In terms of energy consumption km / passenger, the best performance is that of Maglev type trains.


The problem of the maglev is the mind-boggling cost of the meter of track, the skytrain would be a much more interesting solution from the economic point of view.
0 x
"Engineering is sometimes about knowing when to stop" Charles De Gaulle.
Leo Maximus
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 2183
Registration: 07/11/06, 13:18
x 124




by Leo Maximus » 11/08/11, 19:39

sen-no-sen wrote:
Leo Maximus wrote:
In terms of energy consumption km / passenger, the best performance is that of Maglev type trains.


The problem of the maglev is the mind-boggling cost of the meter of track, the skytrain would be a much more interesting solution from the economic point of view.

In Japan, it is the "Linear Express" also called "Chuo Shinkansen" or "New central line". It is currently under construction since Japan Railways signed the order last June: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1JvoP6aj2s . Anyway it will be done. In 2014 there will be enough track to carry out tests at 700km / h, or even more.

The cost is high in Japan because you have to build hundreds of km of tunnels in a seismic zone, it is several times the Channel Tunnel and then expropriate at a high price but the system itself is not much more expensive than a Shinkansen train. Contrary to what one says, the track does not use superconductors but it is only the "bogies" of the cars which use them.

A train of Linear Express L-Zero is 14 cars and 950 passengers weighing 270 tonnes, that's 0,28 tonnes per passenger, average speed of 500 to 550 km / h and 700 km / h at maximum speed. Energy consumption per passenger is half that of the train.

We can perform tests on the current portion of the future Tokyo-Osaka track, it is the "Yamanashi Test Line". You have to register, there are travel agencies in Paris that offer it. Here a video of a test. We go from 30 km / h to 500 km / h in 70 seconds. The video is absolutely not rigged:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ6dYhHI ... re=related

The Japanese have more than 40 years of experience on this type of train, from the start they believed it.
0 x
lever
I discovered econologic
I discovered econologic
posts: 1
Registration: 22/08/05, 01:27




by lever » 11/08/11, 19:55

Hello,

I wonder about the basic calculation: oil yield at 0.9
The figures I know are 0.35 for gasoline and 0.45 for diesel.

it changes the situation a bit, doesn't it?
0 x
User avatar
sen-no-sen
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6856
Registration: 11/06/09, 13:08
Location: High Beaujolais.
x 749




by sen-no-sen » 11/08/11, 20:23

Leo Maximus wrote:


We can perform tests on the current portion of the future Tokyo-Osaka track, it is the "Yamanashi Test Line". You have to register, there are travel agencies in Paris that offer it. Here a video of a test. We go from 30 km / h to 500 km / h in 70 seconds. The video is absolutely not rigged:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ6dYhHI ... re=related


The cow! Impressive!
Thank you for the links, it gives envi, as for such a project in France? : Lol:
0 x
"Engineering is sometimes about knowing when to stop" Charles De Gaulle.
Leo Maximus
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 2183
Registration: 07/11/06, 13:18
x 124




by Leo Maximus » 12/08/11, 10:05

sen-no-sen wrote:Leo Maximus wrote:


We can perform tests on the current portion of the future Tokyo-Osaka track, it is the "Yamanashi Test Line". You have to register, there are travel agencies in Paris that offer it. Here a video of a test. We go from 30 km / h to 500 km / h in 70 seconds. The video is absolutely not rigged:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ6dYhHI ... re=related


The cow! Impressive!
Thank you for the links, it gives envi, as for such a project in France? : Lol:

It's not for tomorrow! : Lol: Anyway we don't really need it at home, there is already the TGV and soon the AGV, maybe :D .

A train of the "Linear Express" type combines the advantage of the plane with its speed, the advantage of the train with stations in the city center and the advantage of the TER because the fact of being able to reach 500 km / h in barely more than a minute (ditto for braking in barely more than a minute) allows frequent stops and the energy cost per km per passenger would be derisory, 80 times less than by car according to JR.

The track is absolutely not cooled with liquid helium but it is only the bogies of the cars which are. There are switches as in all stations but they are made of concrete. The train has wheels like the tire metro, but they are retractable. Braking is electromagnetic and regenerative. The train can perfectly take curves.

A video showing the operation of a switch at Yamanashi station (between 1:00 and 1:25), the video is 4:11, it dates from 2005 and shows an old version of the Linear Express:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFlRyUpj ... re=related

A switch in operation:

Image

:D
0 x
User avatar
chatelot16
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6960
Registration: 11/11/07, 17:33
Location: Angouleme
x 264




by chatelot16 » 12/08/11, 10:29

bernardd wrote:
sen-no-sen wrote:They are equipped with two MAN engines with a power of 325 horsepower each.
...
To give an idea, an Irisbus Crossway Coach with 51 seat capacities (330hp) consumes 30L / 100km,
...
For the bomber AGC:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autorail_grande_capacit%C3%A9
The thermal models are equipped with two MAN engines of 900hp or 1800hp for a consumption of around 180L / 100km for just over 130 seats.


The first comparison parameter should be the mass and the ratio useful mass / total mass = Transport Efficiency.

50t for 64 people: 5,1t of passengers at 80kg / person, i.e. 10% transport efficiency.

133t for 133 people: 10t of passengers, i.e. 7% transport efficiency
165t for 174 people: 14t of passengers, i.e. 8% of transport efficiency.

A small car with 1 person: 8% transport efficiency.

The real question I ask myself: why are we not making smaller and lighter trains, especially for rural areas? The gain in rolling friction and the elongated shape should give a real advantage over cars.

And the possibility of installing solar panels above the rails should give a real solution of energy independence: http://ecologie.blog.lemonde.fr/2011/06 ... -belgique/

While protecting the track from bad weather, as well as the overhead lines, which would have avoided a lot of problems with TGV ...


it is very sad to see diesel engines running on rail ... while others have electric cars

the weight is not a problem for an electric loco ... high power at starting, good performance at low power to maintain constant speed, recovery under braking

in diesel it is a disaster: you need a big engine for acceleration which then turns at low power so very poor performance

it is essential to electrify everything, and even to find smarter solutions, catenary only in acceleration and slope areas, battery in locos to operate at low power in non electrified areas
0 x
User avatar
sen-no-sen
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6856
Registration: 11/06/09, 13:08
Location: High Beaujolais.
x 749




by sen-no-sen » 12/08/11, 11:59

Leo Maximus wrote:It's not for tomorrow! : Lol: Anyway we don't really need it at home, there is already the TGV and soon the AGV, maybe :D .


The Japanese either, they already have the Shinkansen, they are investing in the future ...
The AGV does not present a revolution in transport, it will go a little faster, that's all.
In 70 years John Bertin was developing the aerotrain, an idea that almost came to fruition, but the concept was it seems still too advanced for the time, nowadays it would be interesting to relaunch such a project which could benefit from progress in terms of propulsion (LIM) .

chatelot16 wrote:

it is very sad to see diesel engines running on rail ... while others have electric cars


It is very unfortunate indeed, but still a good number of tracks are not equipped for cost reasons (lack of investment, maintenance, bad weather ...).
0 x
"Engineering is sometimes about knowing when to stop" Charles De Gaulle.
User avatar
sen-no-sen
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6856
Registration: 11/06/09, 13:08
Location: High Beaujolais.
x 749




by sen-no-sen » 12/08/11, 12:02

Leo Maximus wrote:It's not for tomorrow! : Lol: Anyway we don't really need it at home, there is already the TGV and soon the AGV, maybe :D .


The Japanese either, they already have the Shinkansen, they are investing in the future ...
The AGV does not present a revolution in transport, it will go a little faster, that's all.
In 70 years John Bertin was developing the aerotrain, an idea that almost came to fruition, but the concept was it seems still too advanced for the time, nowadays it would be interesting to relaunch such a project which could benefit from progress in terms of propulsion (LIM) .

chatelot16 wrote:

it is very sad to see diesel engines running on rail ... while others have electric cars


It is very unfortunate indeed, but still a good number of tracks are not equipped for cost reasons (lack of investment, maintenance, bad weather ...).
0 x
"Engineering is sometimes about knowing when to stop" Charles De Gaulle.

 


  • Similar topics
    Replies
    views
    Last message

Back to "New transport: innovations, engines, pollution, technologies, policies, organization ..."

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 180 guests