Mercedes 240 D from Didier

Edits and changes to engines, experiences, findings and ideas.
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79118
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 10973




by Christophe » 24/03/07, 20:37

laurent.delaon wrote:Camel1 can you ask Mathieu to check well if he did not invert the data measures "with pantone" and "without pantone" in his analysis?
some things do not seem logical to me ...


And what then which is not logical according to you please? It is a little too easy to take the analyzes of the others, to criticize and not to argue to advance the thing ... don't you think?

Personally I find these analyzes very significant (I only look at the graphs for the moment) because they show black on white and scientifically that there is a real effect of water doping! (we already knew it but it is for the "real" scientists that I made this remark)
0 x
laurent.delaon
I understand econologic
I understand econologic
posts: 168
Registration: 13/08/05, 17:49




by laurent.delaon » 24/03/07, 22:55

And what then which is not logical according to you please? It is a little too easy to take the analyzes of the others, to criticize and not to argue to advance the thing ... don't you think?

Personally I find these analyzes very significant


laurent.delaon wrote:Good evening,
for the second pic on page 17, maybe it's the shock of the cam heads when it comes into contact with the pusher? (slightly confirm in the angular domain) ...
Or a gear problem ...
However (page 7) it is weird to note that the background noise of the spectral density is higher with the pantone than without the pantone right? everyone says and finds (including me) that doping with water reduces noise (therefore mechanical vibrations) or there, we see that they are higher.
Hence my question to Mathieu ... would there have been no inversion of the data before analysis? Under Matlab or Scilab this can happen easily.
So much so that the resonance (of a bearing probably) visible around 11000hz almost disappears in the noise. Maybe there was a filtering out?
On the spectrum without pantone we can I think, to distinguish a comb of stripes can be due to a sick bearing precisely. Difficult to say without an analysis of the signal with the characteristics of the bearing (if it exists).
Does page 15 indicate a loss of compression on cylinder 3?




you missed a post.

because they show black on white and scientifically that there is a real effect of water doping!


it doesn't really show if the pantone reactor is having an effect
or if only water has an effect. And so this effect may be due to the sole pantone reactor acting on water and to what comes out of it, right?
In which case we cannot really speak of water doping.

To discriminate this it is necessary to make an identical test without the reactor I think ...
I had suggested that at one time.

Besides, the tests are done at constant and fixed wheel power, right?
0 x
User avatar
camel1
Pantone engine Researcher
Pantone engine Researcher
posts: 322
Registration: 29/01/05, 00:29
Location: Loire
x 1
Contact :




by camel1 » 25/03/07, 01:18

laurent delaon wrote:
it doesn't really show if the pantone reactor is having an effect
or if only water has an effect. And so this effect may be due to the sole pantone reactor acting on water and to what comes out of it, right?
In which case we cannot really speak of water doping.

To discriminate this it is necessary to make an identical test without the reactor I think ...
I had suggested that at one time.

Besides, the tests are done at constant and fixed wheel power, right?


Well Laurent, you who seem to be super competent and have everything you need to do this kind of test, why don't you stick to it?
Maybe because it's easier to chat on forum than to roll up your sleeves and get your hands dirty, and ask others to do these manipulations, maintaining the haughty posture of "the expert" who comes to comment disdainfully, without spraining ...

Concerning the figure on page 7, it only concerns the signature of the "top tour" magnet placed on the crown.
If you want to have information concerning the vibrations it is rather on the accelerometers that it is necessary to look ...
0 x
We were on the brink, but we made a big step forward ...
User avatar
PITMIX
Pantone engine Researcher
Pantone engine Researcher
posts: 2028
Registration: 17/09/05, 10:29
x 17




by PITMIX » 25/03/07, 08:55

Hi guys.
I know it is not my role but I feel a certain tension between you.
It seems to me that everyone here is trying to understand the graphics.
Laurent has ideas that are not necessarily identical to those of others, that's not why he should be reprimanded.
I think he makes good remarks but not formulate to caress in the direction of the hair. Obviously it doesn't help anything.
He too has a doping with water on this car which gives satisfactory results.
It was not his neighbor who installed him on his car, it was him.
He observes things similar to what one observes with a reactor when he does not have one.
Now passing a car on a bench is not really easy especially when the bench is not used for car engines. Maybe that explains things.
I find it unfortunate to spoil all while I am sure that everyone here has a potential to exploit for the understanding of the phenomena.

So sorry for this intervention, I just wanted to let you know what I think.
Last edited by PITMIX the 26 / 03 / 07, 20: 26, 1 edited once.
0 x
laurent.delaon
I understand econologic
I understand econologic
posts: 168
Registration: 13/08/05, 17:49




by laurent.delaon » 25/03/07, 10:29

Thank you for this good Pitmix intervention; o))) ...
It puts certain things in place on both sides, and brings truthful elements that maybe some people did not have and have imagined (hallucinated?) ....
0 x
laurent.delaon
I understand econologic
I understand econologic
posts: 168
Registration: 13/08/05, 17:49




by laurent.delaon » 25/03/07, 10:52

If you want to have information concerning the vibrations it is rather on the accelerometers that it is necessary to look ...


uh you're right ... i didn't pay attention that it was the inductive sensor. Usually the signal from the accelerometer is processed, this is not the case.Mea culpa.


This brings up other questions ...
0 x
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79118
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 10973




by Christophe » 27/03/07, 13:40

laurent.delaon wrote:This brings up other questions ...


We listen to you carefully :)
0 x
User avatar
lio74
Éconologue good!
Éconologue good!
posts: 333
Registration: 15/03/06, 23:16
Location: Haute-Vienne and SAVOY




by lio74 » 28/03/07, 22:22

laurent.delaon wrote:However (page 7) it is weird to note that the background noise of the spectral density is higher with the pantone than without the pantone right? everyone says and finds (including me) that doping with water reduces noise (therefore mechanical vibrations) or there, we see that they are higher.
Hence my question to Mathieu ... would there have been no inversion of the data before analysis? Under Matlab or Scilab this can happen easily.
So much so that the resonance (of a bearing probably) visible around 11000hz almost disappears in the noise.
[...]
Does page 15 indicate a loss of compression on cylinder 3?


[/ Quote]

Hi everybody : Cheesy:

in what concerns these spectra ... in fact they are just as interesting ... even if those of the accelerometer lack a little depth of analysis :P : Mrgreen:

so there is the signature of the sensor on 0-2kHz and around 5.5 kHz and probably the signature of the resonance frequency of a bearing or other worn part around 11kHz

(for the curve inversion on software heuuu ... I do not think, the work was surely done scrupulously ... : Cheesy: 8) Berf)

to go in the direction of noise reduction I point out that we can trace a nice horizontal straight line at -100dB compared to the first curve where the amplitude of the frequency lines is more unstable
now this is only an impression that I make with my scientific bases but I am not a specialist in vibrational mechanics :?
can we say that the magnitude of the amplitudes in dB represents the power of the noise?
finally .... the spectrum has a better mouth ... it is cleaner, pretty ... it may be that the engine is running rounder ....
marfff but it is the inductive sensor, so I do not think it can tell us about the noise (sound) produced by the motor ... nan!?!

could not the famous author of this doc come (on the forum) light my lantern because I'm curious : Cheesy: :D !

@+
0 x
"To do something is expensive, to do nothing will cost much more." Koffie Annan
next species endangered: Man ... and it will be good for him !!!
MAN IS A VERY DANGEROUS POLLUTION NATURAL!
laurent.delaon
I understand econologic
I understand econologic
posts: 168
Registration: 13/08/05, 17:49




by laurent.delaon » 30/03/07, 12:24

Hello,
there is no trace of wear which is reflected by a resonance;
here it is the inductive sensor which gives only the top tour. We can clearly see the frequency of the tops and less clearly those of the teeth.
It looks a lot (we can even confuse ...) with an accelerometer spectrum but the comparison stops there.
The spectra are done on the accelerometers and they are in frequency, here they are not provided in the study because they are a temporal (angular) representation.
Also for the reso at 11khz we can not say anything a priori (except to be a specialist in the analysis of inductive sensor signals on engine but it should not run the streets; o))) ...).
When the noise is higher since it hides the reso at 11khz.
0 x
User avatar
lio74
Éconologue good!
Éconologue good!
posts: 333
Registration: 15/03/06, 23:16
Location: Haute-Vienne and SAVOY




by lio74 » 31/03/07, 00:26

laurent.delaon wrote:Hello,
there is no trace of wear which is reflected by a resonance;
.....
It looks a lot (we can even confuse ...) with an accelerometer spectrum but the comparison stops there.
............
When the noise is higher since it hides the reso at 11khz.


Hello,

so I may be abusing the word resonance, but vibrational maintenance does exist ... I'm not inventing it ... I did a practical work last year .... some people can't see everything 8 hours of practical work, but that lays the foundation ...

we can easily spot a sick bearing or other worn parts in a mechanism because we see peaks appear, there is a typical exit frequency which corresponds to a particular part .... when the peak exceeds a certain intensity it is necessary to change the part!

and then it was you who put me on the chip for the ride :? but we got carried away for nothing ..... this sensor seems to me it does not give information on the engine noise .... it is only for the rotation speed !!
page 6 we have the time information and page 7 the frequency information
in short we broke our heads for nothing .....
maybe there will be a 2nd report with a more detailed analysis on the accelerometers .... in the meantime I leave the vib to the specialist, I have to focus on something more basic for now.

@+
0 x
"To do something is expensive, to do nothing will cost much more." Koffie Annan

next species endangered: Man ... and it will be good for him !!!

MAN IS A VERY DANGEROUS POLLUTION NATURAL!

 


  • Similar topics
    Replies
    views
    Last message

Back to "Water injection in the engines: the assembly and experimentation"

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 168 guests