Experimentation pantone motor calculations

Edits and changes to engines, experiences, findings and ideas.
Mickael275
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Registration: 27/02/08, 09:35

Experimentation pantone motor calculations




by Mickael275 » 27/02/08, 10:15

Hello,

We are 4 students from Vannes who wish to make a pantone engine as part of our thermodynamics module.

We would like to know if anyone has reliable thermodynamic calculations to help us begin our study.

Our objective is to verify by calculation the operation of the pantone engine ... and to verify everything by a model based on a 4-stroke mower engine.

Thanking you for your help.
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Christophe
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by Christophe » 27/02/08, 10:17

Reliable = we do the job for you, right?

Look on this topic already: https://www.econologie.com/forums/dopage-mot ... t4883.html

Your report and results will be welcome :)
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Pierre-Yves
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Re: Pantone engine experiment, calculations




by Pierre-Yves » 27/02/08, 11:32

sapharic wrote:We are 4 students from Vannes who wish to make a pantone engine as part of our thermodynamics module.

Our objective is to verify by calculation the operation of the pantone engine ... and to verify everything by a model based on a 4-stroke mower engine.

I am starting a study on water doping, with a view to applying it later on to marine engines. Calculating how this system works is, in my opinion, a difficult problem, especially since it doesn't always work. Christophe has just put on the forum a message on two tractors equipped by the same person, with a success and a failure ...
https://www.econologie.com/forums/tracteurs- ... t4890.html

A very interesting study would consist in studying the operating parameters and coming to understand the cause of the failures, to find out whether there are critical values, optimal values, etc.
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by Christophe » 27/02/08, 11:38

Well, we start to have some certainties, at least 3:

- amount of water to inject, about 20% of consumption after modification

- after a certain load: 0 results, problem: this load point is still unclear and depends on the assembly / engine. Coarse estimate: 50%

- acidity of the water favoring the ionization of the steam

Now a real nice study would be nice, maybe EchoMoteur² will place a good foundation? I hope so anyways...
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Pierre-Yves
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by Pierre-Yves » 27/02/08, 18:15

Christophe wrote:Well, we start to have some certainties, at least 3:
- amount of water to inject, approximately 20% of consumption after modification
- below a certain load: 0 results, problem: this load point is still unclear and depends on the assembly / engine. Rough estimate: 50%
- acidity of the water favoring the ionization of the steam

I do not share all these certainties which, in any case, remain completely qualitative. The handyman who is ready to solder / desolder / modify can be satisfied with such indications. Anyone who, like me, was not born with an adjustable wrench in their hand will have a hard time finding their way around.

I am interested in systems that "don't work", not out of masochism or denigration, but because, most likely, there are one or more wrong tuning parameters. Currently, there are no guarantees on the correct operation: that does not satisfy me.
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Other
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by Other » 27/02/08, 18:56

Hello
I am interested in systems that "don't work", not out of masochism or denigration, but because, most likely, there are one or more wrong tuning parameters.


Me too, when two systems are designed in the same way I pay particular attention to the one that does not work, as well as I try to find out why two identical systems are made up of 15% and the other over 30%.

The difference is sometimes an insignificant banality, often outside the reactor either before or after

Andre
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Mickael275
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Registration: 27/02/08, 09:35

Which diagram to take?




by Mickael275 » 27/02/08, 22:18

Thank you for being so responsive :D

Next Saturday we will attend the pantone training course organized by the ille et bio association based in Guichen (suburb of Rennes) in order to pantonize our mower.

Of course, by posting such a message we hope to benefit from your work, but we will also try to reflect on it. Besides, we will give you our report of course (in case it serves you, but you seem quite knowledgeable).

We are moving towards the simple pantone process. That said, there are differences between two diagrams:

The original classic scheme:
Image

A diagram that comes from the association of the cornerstone:
Image


Unimportant differences between these two patterns:
- On image 1 we see a valve where is indicated "Towards an auxiliary bubbler for non-hydrocarbon fuels" which we will not take into account.
- In picture 2, at the outlet of the reactor, we see a valve making it possible to supply a "traditional" air + gasoline mixture coming from a carburetor. Essential element for starting the engine, it has been omitted in diagram 1.

Our problem :
The main problem is that in image 1, the air arrives after the reactor while in image 2, the air arrives before this one. Which method is the best?

Thank you in advance
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Other
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by Other » 28/02/08, 01:47

Hello

The two diagrams are identical except that the name of the valve No3 it calls air mixing valve and the other it calls it auxiliary bubbler (which would be more just water bubbler for example)

In practice, valve 4 and valve 3 you do not need
valve 6 controls the bubbling flow, the more it is open the exhaust goes outside, the more you close it the exhaust goes into the bubbler, so that the system works well the bubbler must be in slight depression , it is practical to have a bubbler in a transparent flexible plastic container when it inflates it is under pressure when it crashes slightly it is in depression, when we see a white cloud of vapor and when it cools slightly the engine is running at his best.

The faucet 5 is the one that we call the most to adjust
when starting the closed one once running the worker is the one who checks the engine richness

This system only works at one speed, to have control over the engine RPMs it is necessary to include a valve just before entering the engine (the throttle in a way)

Why are you making this assembly? it will just show you that mixing water with gasoline will burn the light part of the gasoline and a little water
Out of curiosity to see walking and learning how to use the system, but avoid making those who watch believe that this motor is running on water, or on fruit juice, because anything that you put in the bubbler of the when it has volatile gasoline, the engine runs, but when it has consumed the (good juice) it stops and leaves at the bottom of the bubbler an unusable viscous liquid.

A real experience, you have to consume all the fuel and water in the engine, measure power and consumption,

Running the engine with a bubbler with a large proportion of water is more spectacle than experience.

The first time my son showed me the edit he made
I was amazed to see an engine running with 50% water, but after several measurements of the residues, I quickly understood that the engine actually consumed very little water and not even all of its fuel.
What amazed me was to see the engine running in a closed circuit without taking in outside air and swallowing its exhaust completely for a few minutes.

Andre
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Pierre-Yves
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Re: What regimen should I take?




by Pierre-Yves » 28/02/08, 10:25

sapharic wrote:We are moving towards the simple pantone process.

André wrote:Why are you doing this montage? it will just show you that mixing water with gasoline will burn the light part of the gasoline and a little water.


Totally agree with André. Why still work on an assembly whose faults are well known and for which fuel savings come at the expense of power? The risk is to bring, once again, arguments to the detractors of water doping.

In my opinion, the current problem with water doping is the non-reproducibility of the results: sometimes it works and other times it doesn't. If we want to generalize this system, we must be able to guarantee correct operation to the user. This is what we have to work on.
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Other
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Registration: 17/03/05, 02:35
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by Other » 28/02/08, 15:45

Hello
Totally agree with André. Why still work on an assembly whose faults are well known and for which fuel savings come at the expense of horsepower? The risk is to bring, once again, arguments to the detractors of water doping

What I am trying to say is not to convey miraculous things like the water engine, where the panton runs with 50% water and fuel, which is a trompe l'oeil which does not contribute anything to the evolution of the system.

fuel savings come at the expense of horsepower?
This is wrong,

No car, tractor, plane, or boat uses maximum power in sustained use, the engines would not resist

the economy is better at 150kmh with water doping than at 150kmh without water doping.
Despite the restrictions made by the reactor in the exhaust duct with a 300D turbo, it still rises to 180kmh


Andre
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