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Edits and changes to engines, experiences, findings and ideas.
jcf
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Registration: 21/11/04, 22:58




by jcf » 21/11/04, 23:23

Hello Christopher,
By reading the news of econology, your post 'triggers' me today, and pushes me first of all to tell you something that I wanted to say to you for a long time: Thank you for your memory, and for everything that you did for the Pantone, your works are for the moment the only ones that I found on the Pantone which speak about it in a scientific way.

I have been interested in Pantone since ... summer 2003, and I must admit that I began to wonder if it was not a huge nonsense when I ended up falling on your memory. This one gave me confidence!

I have not read your email on the PMC-France list, because I have stopped reading it for a few months. Indeed, the posts are of such a draft level, that it is impossible to quickly read the digest. We have to manage to reinterpret everything that is written, to understand who answered what, the horror, what, this list would frankly need a good charter and real moderators. However, I read several lists daily, but this can unfortunately only be done if the participants discipline themselves. (Well, I know you are not the moderator, I hope Xavier will read me ...).
For the record, I have to sort out my activities a bit because I am in the last year of my thesis and that I therefore have a considerable job (no, not a thesis on pantone!).

The problem I see with regard to research on the Pantone is perfectly illustrated by the forum PMC-France: lots of isolated people who each leave on their own idea with their equipment.

I think that it is this same analysis which pushed you to what you offer us today. On the other hand, I am not entirely in agreement with you on the way of organizing. Indeed, I think that all these people there are far from paying 50 to 100 euros for an association. Besides, the reverse that you had to do a few months ago on charging for access to your memory illustrated this well.
Another remark, I am not sure that there is a need for many regional associative structures to make all these people work together!

As one of the participants in this thread above suggested, why not take inspiration from the open source world? I agree with you, open source only requires machine time and brain time, and a priori the people who participate in it already had both, which does not require, unlike research in motorization, no investment.

But if we look closely at the motivations of the people who participate in forum, who is it about? From a series of experienced do-it-yourselfers, curious and hackers, more or less equipped with certain machines, who can have access to certain specific resources in the course of their work, and rather solitary (independent) in their hackles, with the net as a unifying element .
Finally, there is relatively little deviation from the open source community.

I think that trying to get them to come to certain places to volunteer time on this or that subject (many of which will necessarily be administrative) will lose a good part of the energy and potential available from all these DIY enthusiasts .

I have rather the feeling, that as for OpenSource, there is a need for a centralizing, virtual body, which federates the energy of all these beautiful people, by defining the priorities, the assemblies to be tested, by recording the results given by each, etc. In other words, an organ structuring all of the micro-research done by each of us.

It seems to me that this is really the first step, namely a few people with project management skills who generate internet tools for cohesion (like sourceforge!).

The biggest functions for this organ that I identify as necessary are:
- The strict definition of the rules of communication and communication of results (for example, do not announce that the retrofitting works super well and that the car no longer consumes anything after 50 km of road !!), charters and systematic filtering of any draft posts from discussion lists, etc.
- The prescription of the next assemblies to be tested (eg: "we should now test water injection on a 1400 cc petrol engine using assembly no. Intel, which does this on his car? ...)
- Systematic recording of measurements made by assembly and by type of assembly.
- Monitoring of resources: for example: such and such in a given department has a gas analyzer and is willing to make it available for testing, such and such has access to a mig and is willing to weld elements for others, etc.
- A database of bugs: we can very well imagine that some of us are interested in pantone but do not have the necessary knowledge in DIY and mechanics. They could ultimately benefit from the help of other pantonizers in their region, and in return for this help test on their equipment (their car) solutions implemented by others. Similarly, some non-DIYers but interested however in the PMC could take care of regularly consulting ADEME agencies and other associations dealing with the environment on the subject of Pantone, and this in order to create a buzz necessary for awareness and triggering grants ...
- Then little by little, more broadly and from the moment when the community begins to really have accumulated its own knowledge and many rolling projects, I think that we will be able to start to influence the policies, but also to ask for subsidies.

It seems to me that licenses of the GPL type are likely to protect all the knowledge that we have developed together of opportunistic behaviors of the patent filing type (to be validated by one of us with legal skills).

We can imagine thinking not only about the pantone assembly, but also about the 'basic' tools to start making measurements, asking people with electronic skills to develop a small on-board computer that is easy to use. and allowing at least the measurement of consumption (+ possibly some temperature sensors), but we could also imagine other small simple circuits to do oneself for example to make a liquid level detector which starts a small pump to replenish the bubbler. => the goal therefore: to create the resource base, to centralize and structure as much as possible the knowledge of each one to create interlocking and interchangeable modules and to allow easy and rapid access to pantonization to the greatest number, and therefore experimentation at large scale.

I agree that this idea of ​​a central body does not have the potential of a big test bench (and again!). But anyway, what association would be capable of being created overnight to operate a research center if not on the basis of a big political will, and if there was political will, would you not have had a job to continue your research at ANVAR (or ADEME, I don't remember)?

I have the feeling that to get to do what you want to do, and which seems to me to be the good idea in the medium term (although in my opinion the local associations are not essential at the beginning, because we can work very well many without being in an association), we must at the outset be able to show to potential funders that there is indeed an effective organization in place, and that the money injected will be used in the best way. It is therefore good for that that I propose that initially we organize the reflection and we federate our research capacities, even if they seem negligible taken separately. No doubt that if each time one of us implements a pantone, he incorporates a small variation requested by the coordination and delivers his feedback, we could move forward in a significant way and without budget.

We would be the first to my knowledge to manage an open source project on a physical problem !! (moreover this would lead us to the creation of new organizational know-how). I really feel that an open source model, with its robustness and efficiency, is the solution: organization, transparency and GPL should put down suspicions, mistrust, little secrets of each other being afraid of being to see dispossessed of an idea which they would have by a cunning seeking to market.

And once that is in place, it seems to me that we would find ourselves in a position of strength to negotiate grants and interest in our research. As a simple example: there is near me an energy info space of the ADEME. I chatted quickly one day with the presenter because he was leaving the market in my village with his information van. I asked him what he was driving. He replied "GPL". You haven't tried to pantonize him, I ask him. His response was that he knew, but it didn't sound very serious. Well, I understand that and I think we have to demonstrate the seriousness of our organization before asking for the money.
It is on this that the first person in charge of the ADEME who will see on the PMC-France list where research on pantone is concerned cannot, decently, decide to devote a subsidy to it ...
The same goes for the academic world. I don't think everyone finds PMC silly (the proof, you did find a research director). Let us give them enough assurance that there is something to dig so that they can commit budgets to it.

So I would actually see a two-dimensional system:
- a collective of do-it-yourselfers-hackers-testers oriented via the pantone's open-source development website and making it possible to carry out large-scale tests, but with few measurement possibilities (consumption, a few temperatures ?, possibly longevity and bugs).
- secondly, a test bench, managed by the central body, and financed by grants once this research on the pantone has become fairly legible.

The first skill to find is therefore that to start all this, of a project manager, and I have the impression that you left to be ;-P.


Thank you for reading me so far, I don't speak often, but when I do, conciseness is definitely not my strength !!
See you soon,
Jean-Christophe
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krissg29
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Registration: 07/11/04, 21:26
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by krissg29 » 22/11/04, 01:02

Hello,

maybe it could start with a database on Econology classified by short cut or completed
It would be accessible in reading and writing by all the participants but the writing would be limited to the addition of new data (results of experiments) on a montage or the opening of a new one.

what do you think christophe

christophe (yes i repeat myself but it is also my first name)
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snono
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Registration: 22/11/04, 09:37




by snono » 22/11/04, 09:44

I don't have time to read all the posts, I'm at work.

For several years I have been intrigued by certain technologies, it started with stirling, I still fell back to JLN, and recently magnetic motors and PANTONE.

I bought 2 lawn mowers at Emmaüs, or € 80 for 2, it's cheap.

And as soon as I have my "home" I retrofit them, and I tinker with a Perendev type generator.

I am a computer scientist by training and to tell the truth, this is not what makes me vibrate, I learn about many other subjects.

I think a PMC federation is a great idea.

I was thinking of distributing PMC plans at the exit of supermarkets or that sort of thing, now we can hope to do group actions.

A little hope, it does not hurt, thank you all.
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fred
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Registration: 11/11/04, 18:30




by fred » 22/11/04, 11:15

I wanted to salute the intervention of JCF, I find his reflections very relevant.
I am also convinced that it is by pooling our energies and achievements that we will gain credibility.
If there are enough of us to be convincing in the face of organizations like ADEME, VALBIOM (among others for Belgium) or others, by moving for example en masse with retrofitted vehicles during a small informative event for the general public public, the finances of a bench will inevitably follow.
In the meantime, by working together on each person's achievements, in OPEN mode, our personal efforts will be BOOST and we will be all the more motivated to adapt our vehicles or groups and to meet to celebrate our development.
The industrialists will certainly be interested there one day and it will be hoped for the good of all.
However, just because Windows exists and is paid does not mean that Linux is banned.
And then if certain are ready then to offer a SERVICE and to make it pay for, with a chain of RetrofitShops why not? :D
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snono
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Registration: 22/11/04, 09:37




by snono » 22/11/04, 11:43

I have read everything.

- MisterLoXo, JCF ... are right. Christophe, you have shown great courage, on multiple occasions and you do not lack initiative and motivation. You deserve our respect to ALL.

- Industrialists, it may be us, you, of other people, who don't think about making money. As a business manager (small web development box), I tell you, if I could hire more easily, find grants without going out of my way (because ANVAR, ADEM ... don't are not so receptive to this kind of development. I suspect the lobbies & Co), I would create a small structure with well motivated people to Pantonize day and night ... it is a false problem. The development of a product and / or its distribution will necessarily go through the participation of companies - it may be desirable to remain on a human scale.

- JCF is absolutely right, we need to organize our information very efficiently: see sourceforge.org and many others for organizing data and monitoring it ...

- And finally, I share with you an idea that I think is very interesting. It is without back thought that I deliver it to you. I recently learned that the reprocessing of edible oils is very complicated and very expensive. The machine for "drying" the oils is very expensive and it is then necessary to call on another company to remove the dry residues which must then be destroyed by I do not know what process.
Perhaps the development of the Pantone could focus on several poles. Depollution is a particularly important aspect.
I'm not talking to you about detergents and products from the building industry: paint, white spirit, varnish, resin of all kinds ... all of this must be able to be destroyed in the Pantone.

Be together, this is the only alternative.

PS: another kind of cooperative work, http://www.stanford.edu/group/pandegroup/folding/ - http://www.p2p-community.com

NB: Dsl for the few spelling mistakes, I think indeed that it is necessary to write in a clear and structured way in order to be understood.
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snono
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Registration: 22/11/04, 09:37




by snono » 23/11/04, 11:00

I reflected a lot last night in front of a small glass of Sky.

What I read on this subject and what it inspires me - Attention, I send a little in bulk, but I'm still at work so it's just notes:
- the association could serve as a centralizing point for information, equipment and various services. The association will be able to manage the web server for the centralization of data, to serve as a purchasing center so that research members can benefit from the prices negotiated by the association.
It will be necessary to learn about the legal forms that exist for associations, also to know how it goes for VAT ... I have some friends doing law who could enlighten us.
The association can also take care of all media, mailing, advertising ...

- the membership contribution pays the structure made available to members (see above). Members therefore benefit from the advancement of each and benefit from certain advantages for development in terms of material and available resources.
=> The goal remains to advance the Pantone project

The association should remain national with several research and development groups spread throughout France. Representatives will have to be thought through in order to be able to provoke assemblies giving rise to votes for the investments and orientations of the associations.

=> the project becomes Opensource because we have the brain and the material -> there is no longer the problem of the remuneration because there is no more monetary advance, there remains only personal investment which corresponds to the true values ​​of a non-profit association. These are the values ​​that must drive us all to develop the Pantone project and make it known and used by as many people as possible.

Attention: If the system does not please me and I seek personal profit, I have no place in the association because we will remember that "the goal is to save the world"

- Rules will have to be defined for the organization of information on the centralizing site. Project frames containing the list of material, the time of realization, the implementation, the modifications to come ...
We can find on the site the list of current projects with their specificities as well as information on research groups that are on development, their participant with their skills and location, as it has already started. The information will be crossed for a better exchange and a quick reading

=> In the end, the greatest number will be able to become members and therefore develop and benefit from the structure of the association
=> lots of Pantone everywhere and lots of members. We can indeed make Pantones with friends, some tinker, others not, but everyone is a member and rides in Pantone.

This is what I have learned from everything I have read and what my inspiration has given me.
Now we have to define a lot of things.

What do you think ?
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fred
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Registration: 11/11/04, 18:30




by fred » 23/11/04, 11:31

snono, I don't know what the Sky is, but the Sky is a door to the infinite :D
Very well, but you say:
The association should remain national ...
Personally, I live in Belgium ...
and as you also say:
we will remember that "the goal is to save the world"
Is it not possible to work at European level and why not worldwide?
There are lots of French speakers who read this site in the world and certainly as many motivations.
Thank you for your contribution and your good ideas.
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snono
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by snono » 23/11/04, 11:43

You're right, we need national associations per country, then federate at the international level.

sky = whiskey :P
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Adrien
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Registration: 11/11/04, 22:25
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by Adrien » 23/11/04, 11:57

For my part I am not for ONE association, I prefer either to find another way, or then several associations ...

For Fred, Sky must be alcohol.

snono, there are different things that bother me:

the association could serve as a centralizing point for information, equipment and various services

as this word wears so well, material is ... material! Where will it be located? Knowing that not everyone lives next door ...

The association should remain national with several research and development groups spread throughout France.

National? Borders are only in our heads! The project must be accessible to everyone around the world, and besides many cannot afford to pay a contribution every year ...

Representatives will have to be thought through in order to be able to provoke assemblies giving rise to votes for the investments and orientations of the associations.

Some will be disadvantaged again ... A forum would be enough I think like that everyone is tied (except those who do not have the net, but others can speak on their behalf ...)

I have to go,
see you soon, Adrien.
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"A man who knows how to make himself happy with a simple illusion is infinitely smarter than one who is in despair with reality." Alphonse Allais
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snono
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Registration: 22/11/04, 09:37




by snono » 23/11/04, 12:11

as this word wears so well, material is ... material! Where will it be located? Knowing that not everyone lives next door ...

The goal is to provide better prices for the achievements, each group will order. The price should be greatly reduced, the goal is not to have a free Pantone engine, it is not possible, but that the development costs are absorbed by the association. Shipping costs could also be absorbed.

National? Borders are only in our heads! The project must be accessible to everyone around the world, and besides many cannot afford to pay a contribution every year ...

I agree, let's expand. However, we are not drowning in the implementation of the administrative. The citizens of each country will manage the implementation in their country and we will coordinate at European level and more.

Some will be disadvantaged again ... A forum would be enough I think like that everyone is tied (except those who do not have the net, but others can speak on their behalf ...)

Why ? Imagine a group of 3 people, it should be able to be represented by one of these members according to their availability. This must be deepened of course, but the goal is that everyone has their say, at first I think that most of the members will move in person, but when it has gained momentum they will be able to choose to be represented. Finally I preferred to be represented, to tell the truth the vote does not give a particular power to the adherent who votes in assembly, it's just a matter of proxy.


Note that the benefits which could then be generated by the activity of the association will allow the purchase and redistribution of equipment almost free of charge.
Do not go back, Santa Claus does not exist, everything cannot be offered, membership will not allow enough money to be collected to feed everyone without additional participation, but over time, the structure of the association will surely allow this kind of action.
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