Patrick Lefrere: documentary film on the water doping

Edits and changes to engines, experiences, findings and ideas.
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Re: Patrick Lefrere: documentary film on water doping




by Christophe » 13/12/17, 19:24

Gildas wrote:PS: I do not sell a kit.


Me neither I have never sold, but I made the promotion of the system ...
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Re: Patrick Lefrere: documentary film on water doping




by Flytox » 13/12/17, 23:45

When you have a well-traveled old diesel engine, the intake valves are covered with a large, thick, thick crust (several mm thick) that does not pretend to brake the throttle. This imbalances the carburetion / combustion from one cylinder to the other / valve to another, depending on whether the seal on the valve stem is more or less tired (lets the oil go up) and the proximity of the degassing breather. engine oil (which does not daub the same as each intake duct).

The consumption of an old dirty engine can increase significantly (like +0.5 l / 100 km) as the km and filling disturbed. With a Gillier Pantone, the "steam" manages to clean a good part of this crust on the valves without removing the cylinder head. You improve your consumption .... especially compared to the "dirty" crusty state. For my part on my R19, I went from 5.1 / 100 km before Gillier Pantone to around 4.7 l / 100 km (same as manufacturer consumption) on a 350 km car. AMHA, the main gain on a low-traffic engine is the restoration of the original consumption performance .... This cannot be measured on a power bench over the short term ... And once the cylinder head is cleaned it lasts all the same a good number of km before setting out again to the crust. My consumption moved very little with the water tank empty during the Gillier period ... AMHA, when the engine is not too badly made, clean and little used, the difference in consumption with and without Gillier Pantone is in the 'measurement error.

For the rest, completely agree with Christophe, the gain is by shooting to death on the jade, which allows to have the optimum advance / optimum performance without detonating.
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Re: Patrick Lefrere: documentary film on water doping




by Christophe » 14/12/17, 00:17

Agree with you also on the cleaning of engines :)
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Re: Patrick Lefrere: documentary film on water doping




by Grelinette » 14/12/17, 09:47

Hello and thank you for these technical details on water doping,

This debate allows in my opinion to get the "Water Doping" out of this kind of esoteric fog which weighs it down.

That said, I will still fly the boat on this subject ... but it's for the good cause! : Cheesy:

I therefore resume the testimony of gildas :
In short: 27% diesel savings and very strong reduction of pollution and engine parts protected from scale. FAP and EGR it can be thousands of euros if clogged! qed ..
Do not forget also the cleaning effect of the engine made by water vapor!
On my Kangoo drop of particle pollution by almost 100% with water doping!

Gildas uses a standard car on the market and on which he finds real benefits, without going through a test bench, or, I imagine, scream his engine to its limits of operation. Moreover, in the Bureau Véritas report that I read diagonally, it does not seem to me to have read that the measurements were made on a motor pushed to its limits of operation.

This testimony, therefore,


- on the one hand, confirms that it is extremely simple to prove the advantages of the water-doping system in a very classic use, on a standard vehicle,

- on the other hand, to a certain extent, also comes "contradict" the technical explanations of Christophe according to which the Doping with the Water is especially effective "on a heavily loaded engine". (Christophe, does not take this remark for a criticism: I dissect the subject to move it forward and get it out of the doubts that plague it!).

But to add another 1 good point to water doping, I also note that the system has a cleaning effect of the valves and the engine.

We advance, we advance ...

To promote the Dopage à l'Eau, it would probably have been more striking to first tackle the powerful and energy-consuming vehicles: tractors, construction and earthmoving vehicles, even local public transport vehicles, etc. ) rather than immediately questioning and denouncing the strategic choices of the lobbies of the automobile industry for Mr. Toutlemonde's car.


This technical debate is hard to pin down and looks like the ones we have on right now on econology which concern the good choices to be made on electric vehicles and the uses that it would be preferable to spend primarily on electricity: city travel, public transit, etc.
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Re: Patrick Lefrere: documentary film on water doping




by Christophe » 14/12/17, 12:04

Grelinette wrote:Hello and thank you for these technical details on water doping,

This debate allows in my opinion to get the "Water Doping" out of this kind of esoteric fog which weighs it down.


a) This is what I have been "fighting" since 2001 .... hey yes already! But obviously the classic media give more importance to esoteric theories than to engineers ... it's more salesman eh Mr journalists with 2 balls ...

Synthesis messages I did not hurt, just search a little ... understand that I can be tired of repeating the same thing over and over again ... Maybe a youtube video could become viral, but I do not know if I'm good at it and still you have to get into the technique to be credible so it's unlikely that it works ... (understand: too complicated)

b) That is why it is necessary share these speeches and news posted on this forum by the specialists (Maloche, Flytox, André ... and all the others) of the water injection (term that I prefer to doping) rather than giving credit to the smoking ... or rather foggy theory to stay in the subject.

c) Here is a article of synthesis that had been done with Maloche in 2010 (already too):

Water injection-motor-pantone / article-econologic-autobio-on-doping-al-water-t9612.html

This is the kind of info you have to share ...

Sorry but I'm not a magician I can not do everything myself (and I remember that I do not earn a cent to defend the injection of water ...) so your social networks ... if you want .. .or not...
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Re: Patrick Lefrere: documentary film on water doping




by gildas » 14/12/17, 12:12

Grelinette wrote:Hello and thank you for these technical details on water doping,

Hello Grelinette, thank you for your participation!
Grelinette wrote:This debate allows in my opinion to get the "Water Doping" out of this kind of esoteric fog which weighs it down.

Doping with water is also effective when the water is in the form of fog. ( : Cheesy: )
Grelinette wrote:That said, I will still fly the boat on this subject ... but it's for the good cause! : Cheesy:

I therefore resume the testimony of gildas :
In short: 27% diesel savings and very strong reduction of pollution and engine parts protected from scale. FAP and EGR it can be thousands of euros if clogged! qed ..
Do not forget also the cleaning effect of the engine made by water vapor!
On my Kangoo drop of particle pollution by almost 100% with water doping!

Gildas uses a standard car on the market and on which he finds real benefits, without going through a test bench, or, I imagine, scream his engine to its limits of operation.

Measurements have been made in a technical control ... See here comments and photos of my editing:
understanding water-injection / injection of steam-and-water-in-reactor-pantone-t2538-40.html (In the middle of the page)


Grelinette wrote:
...

But to add another 1 good point to water doping, I also note that the system has a cleaning effect of the valves and the engine.


It's even one of the secrets of doping with water ...
Although the comparison is difficult to find, the valves are like a set of suction cups:
If you take a plastic sucker and plate it on a tile apparently clean, it will take several days. But if we clean the tile and the sucker perfectly, then it will hold strong and long!

Same thing for the valves, the slightest trace of imbrulé, calamine or trace of varnish compromises the sealing with the valves ...

Water doping will also work on a gasoline engine (used) even if the pollution is zero at the CT: A catalytic converter is able to treat a lot of pollution.
It is then noticed by the decrease of conso and / or + of power, especially on a subscribed motor to the short and urban routes.

Grelinette wrote:
We advance, we advance ...


However there is to convince the trio: Oilers - Government - Engine builders ..


Grelinette wrote:To promote the Dopage à l'Eau, it would probably have been more striking to first tackle the powerful and energy-consuming vehicles: tractors, construction and earthmoving vehicles, even local public transport vehicles, etc. ) rather than immediately questioning and denouncing the strategic choices of the lobbies of the automobile industry for Mr. Toutlemonde's car.


There are examples in the forum looking good ..

We will switch to electric motors without the thermal engine has experienced the doping with water vapor ...
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Re: Patrick Lefrere: documentary film on water doping




by Christophe » 14/12/17, 12:17

Grelinette wrote:To promote the Dopage à l'Eau, it would probably have been more striking to first tackle the powerful and energy-consuming vehicles: tractors, construction and earthmoving vehicles, even local public transport vehicles, etc. ) rather than immediately questioning and denouncing the strategic choices of the lobbies of the automobile industry for Mr. Toutlemonde's car.


This is what I always believed yes but I have never met the right people (in real) ... because to change a 50 engine 000 €, it takes credibility ...

For example, at one point I was in contact with sinful sailors (in 2006 I think) I even had a meeting in one of their premises in Paris (not the ministry but something that gets closer) ... was not done for lack of credibility (I had no industrial behind me ...) after we can understand: the reliability of a trawler engine is the life of many people ...

Anyway on the boats it would not have worked at best: we have the same concerns with the generator, there is a power reserve for the engine compared to the propeller (but a propeller it changes ...)

I also heard (rumors) that Caterpilar remove the guarantees of its engines that had a water injection ... often they are long because it is leasing longer than 2 years ...

In 2002 I was in contact with officials of the Urban Community of Strasbourg, none wanted to "get wet" ...

So what do you want?
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Re: Patrick Lefrere: documentary film on water doping




by Christophe » 14/12/17, 12:21

Grelinette wrote:This testimony, therefore,

- on the one hand, confirms that it is extremely simple to prove the advantages of the water-doping system in a very classic use, on a standard vehicle,

- on the other hand, to a certain extent, also comes "contradict" the technical explanations of Christophe according to which the Doping with the Water is especially effective "on a heavily loaded engine". (Christophe, does not take this remark for a criticism: I dissect the subject to move it forward and get it out of the doubts that plague it!).


This document speaks mostly about pollution (which I had never seen ... yet it dates from 2012 already ... Econokit is already inspired by Econology without informing me but in addition they do not share the information, a pity ... I'm used to lol), I was talking about consumption ...

so there is no contradiction with what I said above!

The consumption test in the last pages is not at all clear: without the kit the engine is at 75% load (and before we read 75% = 25 cv, it's not logical at all) and with the kit it's 63% ... it's anything. For me these tests in consumption have no value ... (or very little).

At 75% actual load, yes it is possible that there is an effect! But on a Punto 75cv 75% load is roll to 140-150 km / h ...

ps: if you want things to move, we could launch a crowfunding but I'm afraid it's a bit late (fashion is electric ...)
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Re: Patrick Lefrere: documentary film on water doping




by Christophe » 14/12/17, 12:32

Gildas wrote:However there is to convince the trio: Oilers - Government - Engine manufacturers ...


This is the mistake of conventional reasoning that makes it not progress! It's not personal, I thought it was the right way ... and I thought it was too long. The good method is to DO WITHOUT THEM and put them in front of the fact accomplished ...

Do you think that Tesla asked auto manufacturers to develop whatever before they started?

Of course not...

Ok nobody is a billionaire here and it's a shame ...
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Re: Patrick Lefrere: documentary film on water doping




by Flytox » 14/12/17, 23:04

Gildas wrote:Same thing for the valves, the slightest trace of imbrulé, calamine or trace of varnish compromises the sealing with the valves ...

In our case, I think that the aerodynamic effect of the crust which obstructs the passage of the gases at the valve tulip is clearly preponderant compared to a possible problem of sealing due to a dirty seat. When a dirty diesel engine (not the generation stuffed with electronics) chokes at the valve, there is no sensor to tell him that this cylinder must receive less fuel in compensation. It's too rich, it consumes, smokes and pollutes donf especially during accelerations and heavy load ...
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