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Grelinette
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The scientific unknown VS physical laws and principles in force

Unread Messageby Grelinette » 12/10/20, 10:33

Hello,

I open this new debate under the title "The scientific unknown", which is surely not the most suitable (Christophe will change it if necessary) but the word "unknown" is sufficiently vast to include the idea that I want to express .

I am very fond of debates on econology which herald research and questions that question the limits of our knowledge in science.

For example, I just browsed the topic https://www.econologie.com/forums/inventions-innovations/ce-circuit-en-graphene-produit-de-l-energie-indefiniment-t16577.html in which it is announced that the first observations of the phenomenon studied seem to call into question certain fundamental bases of our knowledge (cf. the Laws of Thermodynamics) ...

The specialists quickly came to rectify the comments to say that there was nothing new under the sun of Science, and that the results of this research and the conclusions which came from it are erroneous or even eccentric.

There still remains the question of whether certain fundamental rules on which our scientific knowledge is based are definitely set in stone, and therefore intangible, or if we can envisage that the evolution of our knowledge will allow them to be called into question one day in the future. or less near, or far away, and thus consider answering questions today unanswered such as "abundant and infinite energy is possible" on Earth, ditto for the production of "superunitary" energy, or movement perpetual, etc ...

In short, before opening a new debate on econology to answer these questions, a debate which generally ends with a crystallization of positions and encysts between the "for" and "against" (and often ends with exchanges of names of 'birds and other ad-hominen attacks ... Image Image),
I would like us to put on the table (of Science) the phenomena and observations for which Science has not been able to provide a scientific answer.

(let's avoid UFOs, homeopathy, the water engine, cold fusion or Iter which are potentially hot and even explosive subjects! ... Image)


I am therefore embarking on the perilous establishment of this list by giving 3 examples (moreover already mentioned on econology):

- The phenomenon of Gravity (or Gravity): we observe this force, we calculate it, but we do not explain it.

- This curious object invented in 1873 by Crooks, the Crooks radiometer, and which seemed to demonstrate that the photon constituting light had a mass, which A.Einstein more or less contradicted and explained in part. (wiki). The fact remains that this curious object still takes on some unexplained scientific mysteries ...

- The experiment which consists in causing the bursting of an atomic element propelling 2 particles linked in 2 opposite directions, then to produce an action on one of the 2 particles and to notice that the other distant also reacted instantly ...
(This is a summary of this curious experience that was explained to me ... Nuclear specialists will be able to take, detail or correct this short description.)

Do you know of any other examples of phenomena or objects that tickle the immutable rules of contemporary physics?
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Re: The scientific unknown ....

Unread Messageby Christophe » 12/10/20, 12:59

Have a good debate! To summarize very quickly:

a) our physical rules and law are only an approximation of what the reality... some stick well enough others much less.

For example: it is impossible to predict with exactness a flow mathematically ... We approach it but we are not 100% fair. Real testing is essential.

Ditto in thermodynamics or heat exchanges, it is always necessary to confirm by real measurements on test benches.

Note that the Boeing 747 was designed almost without IT with wind tunnel tests ... and all its development was done on a drawing board. And it still flies, and very well, 50 years later! The same cannot be said of the A380 ... (remark outside the Covid crisis which only ended it ...)

b) Then what is reality? What is scientific truth? The reality of men is limited to their 5 (6) senses and the machines, in particular electronic, that they have succeeded in building to extend our 5 natural senses ... If we do not know how to measure a physical quantity, this quantity does not does not exist ... for us, quite simply ... But it does exist nonetheless.

Try to explain radio waves to ancient Romans ...

Grelinette wrote:I am therefore embarking on the perilous establishment of this list by giving 3 examples (moreover already mentioned on econology):

(...)

Do you know of any other examples of phenomena or objects that tickle the immutable rules of contemporary physics?


Uh ... the Casimir effect? https://www.econologie.com/effet-casimir/

Otherwise in quantum physics it tickles almost all the time! : Cheesy:

ps: I have a doubt about the title ... it's not rather unknown? I changed the title ...
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Re: The scientific unknown VS physical laws and principles in force

Unread Messageby Christophe » 12/10/20, 13:17

Uh, nice coincidence ... sorry it's homeopathy ... but with a touch of quantum physics!

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Re: The scientific unknown VS physical laws and principles in force

Unread Messageby ENERC » 12/10/20, 13:51

Grelinette wrote:Do you know of any other examples of phenomena or objects that tickle the immutable rules of contemporary physics?

We are making good progress lately on gravitational waves. We can see a deviation of light by these gravitational waves.

What bothers me the most is this notion of space-time: I find it twisted. I understand Newton very well, but not Einstein on this point
For example, according to Newton the Earth revolves around the Sun because the latter exerts a gravitational force on our planet. For Einstein, it is a disturbance of space-time introduced by the mass of the Sun which is at the origin of the movement of the Earth


To say that the Earth follows a straight line in its space-time and that therefore it does not revolve around the sun: that seems strange to me. It fits with the equations, but it seems to me that something is missing and that it is a "forced" equation (= against nature and against the sense of observation).
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Re: The scientific unknown VS physical laws and principles in force

Unread Messageby Christophe » 12/10/20, 14:00

ENERC wrote:We can see a deviation of light by these gravitational waves.


In theory we had known it for a long time, right? The black holes ... the curve of space-time ...
It goes back a few decades, right?

In practice, we have just proven it, but observing a black hole was sufficient ...

ENERC wrote:What bothers me the most is this notion of space-time: I find it twisted. I understand Newton very well, but not Einstein on this point
For example, according to Newton the Earth revolves around the Sun because the latter exerts a gravitational force on our planet. For Einstein, it is a disturbance of space-time introduced by the mass of the Sun which is at the origin of the movement of the Earth


To say that the Earth follows a straight line in its space-time and that therefore it does not revolve around the sun: that seems strange to me. It fits with the equations, but it seems to me that something is missing and that it is a "forced" equation (= against nature and against the sense of observation).


Who says that? With a curved space-time it is completely coherent ...

It's a bit like a ball rolling tangentially to the main axis in a funnel with sufficient initial speed ...

As with any physical observation ... everything depends on the frame of reference!
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Re: The scientific unknown VS physical laws and principles in force

Unread Messageby ENERC » 12/10/20, 14:29

Christophe wrote:
ENERC wrote:We can see a deviation of light by these gravitational waves.


In theory we had known it for a long time, right? The black holes ... the curve of space-time ...
It goes back a few decades, right?

In practice, we have just proven it, but observing a black hole was sufficient ...


It is not easy to observe. Already we need a network of sensors like this one (Ligo):
Image

and then tremendous computing power as described in a forthcoming MNRAS publication (so I'm one of the co-authors). (I took care of the calculation part on the graphics card, not the equations)
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ABC2019
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Re: The scientific unknown VS physical laws and principles in force

Unread Messageby ABC2019 » 12/10/20, 14:43

Okay then if you allow the folks whose training it is to speak on these topics .... : Mrgreen:

Grelinette wrote:- The phenomenon of Gravity (or Gravity): we observe this force, we calculate it, but we do not explain it.

uh in fact we “don't explain” any force anyway, we just describe them, but we have no explanation of why they are like that and not otherwise, it's not specific to gravity.

The gravity problem is not there. The problem is that at the microscopic level, matter does not behave like particles but rather like waves, it is described by quantum mechanics. But while we succeeded in giving a quantum description of all the other forces, we did not arrive there with gravity (which remains however well described "classically" by Einstein's theory of relativity). What is lacking in physics is a satisfactory theory of quantum gravity.


- This curious object invented in 1873 by Crooks, the Crooks radiometer, and which seemed to demonstrate that the photon constituting light had a mass, which A.Einstein more or less contradicted and explained in part. (wiki). The fact remains that this curious object still takes on some unexplained scientific mysteries ...

not aware of "unexplained" phenomena with the Crookes radiometer.


- The experiment which consists in causing the bursting of an atomic element propelling 2 particles linked in 2 opposite directions, then to produce an action on one of the 2 particles and to notice that the other distant also reacted instantly ...
(This is a summary of this curious experience that was explained to me ... Nuclear specialists will be able to take, detail or correct this short description.)

I guess you mean non-locality and the quantum mechanical measurement problem, with Aspect experiments. It is more a problem of measurement than of an "action". Everything happens as if when we measured a quantity on one of the particles (technically the polarization of a photon), we did not know what we were going to find in advance, but once we had found it, the other particle was aware "instantly" and "at a distance" of what had been found, and adapted accordingly.

Quantum mechanics is the whole mystery, there is indeed no well-established explanation, and when you think about it, it poses fundamental questions about what the "reality" of the world is, questions currently unanswered. .

That said, these are more metaphysical questions than physical ones, because they do not allow the construction of "magic" objects, in particular one cannot use this "transmission" to transmit information. On the other hand it has applications for cryptography, and it allows in particular to know if your message has been "read" by someone else or not (it is the quantum equivalent of a seal on a letter) .



Do you know of any other examples of phenomena or objects that tickle the immutable rules of contemporary physics?

I will say rather that contemporary physics still has unknown fields, and I will certainly not use the adjective "immutable" about it, since none of the current modern theories existed only 150 years ago.
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Re: The scientific unknown VS physical laws and principles in force

Unread Messageby ABC2019 » 12/10/20, 14:48

ENERC wrote:It is not easy to observe. Already we need a network of sensors like this one (Ligo):

if you are one of the co-authors (you work for Virgo?), you should know then that what we observed for the first time, it is not the deviation of light by the gravitational field, which is observed for a long time (and was even the first test of general relativity by Eddington in 1919 who observed the apparent displacement of stars when the rays passed in the vicinity of the Sun, during a total eclipse), but precisely the very existence of gravitational waves, therefore these "vibrations" of the gravitational field (whereas until then we had only measured "static").
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Re: The scientific unknown VS physical laws and principles in force

Unread Messageby ENERC » 12/10/20, 15:23

ABC2019 wrote:
ENERC wrote:It is not easy to observe. Already we need a network of sensors like this one (Ligo):

if you are one of the co-authors (you work for Virgo?), you should know then that what we observed for the first time, it is not the deviation of light by the gravitational field, which is observed for a long time (and was even the first test of general relativity by Eddington in 1919 who observed the apparent displacement of stars when the rays passed in the vicinity of the Sun, during a total eclipse), but precisely the very existence of gravitational waves, therefore these "vibrations" of the gravitational field (whereas until then we had only measured "static").

Except that
Was it true? In fact, the analyzes of the images of Sobral in Brazil did not give the expected results. Eddington and Dyson decided not to keep them, and to retain only the photograph of Sao Tome and Principe, the conclusions of which concurred with Einstein's predictions. Since then, many experiments have made it possible to verify the validity of general relativity.
https://www.herodote.net/29_mai_1919-evenement-1

The real highlight is here:
Our long-term goal is to make the first direct detections of gravitational-wave emission from spinning neutron stars. Gravitational waves were predicted by Albert Einstein a century ago, and were directly seen for the first time on September 14, 2015. This observation of gravitational waves from a pair of merging black holes opens up a new window on the universe, and ushers in a new era in astronomy.

This first direct measurement was made soon after the advanced LIGO instruments came online after an extensive five-year upgrade. These advanced detectors took data between September 2015 and January 2016 and can already "see" three to six times as far as initial LIGO, depending upon the source type. Over the next two years this will increase to a factor of ten or more, increasing the number of potentially-visible gravitational-wave sources by a factor of a thousand!

https://einsteinathome.org

and in French
In the 1960s, the first gravitational wave detectors were set up, under the leadership of the American physicist Joseph Weber. After decades of attempts to detect these tiny shifts, Einstein's hypothesis in his theory of General Relativity has been validated: the waves are observed in September 2015, and confirmed in February 2016 by the American detector Ligo. Before being detected again just a few days ago from Europe, for the first time. These gravitational waves were produced by the fusion of two black holes, located 1,3 billion light-years from Earth. At the same time, it is proof of the existence of black holes.
https://www.franceculture.fr/sciences/p ... astronomie
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ABC2019
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Re: The scientific unknown VS physical laws and principles in force

Unread Messageby ABC2019 » 12/10/20, 15:51

ENERC wrote:
ABC2019 wrote:
ENERC wrote:It is not easy to observe. Already we need a network of sensors like this one (Ligo):

if you are one of the co-authors (you work for Virgo?), you should know then that what we observed for the first time, it is not the deviation of light by the gravitational field, which is observed for a long time (and was even the first test of general relativity by Eddington in 1919 who observed the apparent displacement of stars when the rays passed in the vicinity of the Sun, during a total eclipse), but precisely the very existence of gravitational waves, therefore these "vibrations" of the gravitational field (whereas until then we had only measured "static").

Except that
Was it true? In fact, the analyzes of the images of Sobral in Brazil did not give the expected results. Eddington and Dyson decided not to keep them, and to retain only the photograph of Sao Tome and Principe, the conclusions of which concurred with Einstein's predictions. Since then, many experiments have made it possible to verify the validity of general relativity.
https://www.herodote.net/29_mai_1919-evenement-1

The real highlight is here:
Our long-term goal is to make the first direct detections of gravitational-wave emission from spinning neutron stars. Gravitational waves were predicted by Albert Einstein a century ago, and were directly seen for the first time on September 14, 2015. This observation of gravitational waves from a pair of merging black holes opens up a new window on the universe, and ushers in a new era in astronomy.

This first direct measurement was made soon after the advanced LIGO instruments came online after an extensive five-year upgrade. These advanced detectors took data between September 2015 and January 2016 and can already "see" three to six times as far as initial LIGO, depending upon the source type. Over the next two years this will increase to a factor of ten or more, increasing the number of potentially-visible gravitational-wave sources by a factor of a thousand!

https://einsteinathome.org

and in French
In the 1960s, the first gravitational wave detectors were set up, under the leadership of the American physicist Joseph Weber. After decades of attempts to detect these tiny shifts, Einstein's hypothesis in his theory of General Relativity has been validated: the waves are observed in September 2015, and confirmed in February 2016 by the American detector Ligo. Before being detected again just a few days ago from Europe, for the first time. These gravitational waves were produced by the fusion of two black holes, located 1,3 billion light-years from Earth. At the same time, it is proof of the existence of black holes.
https://www.franceculture.fr/sciences/p ... astronomie


hem, you confuse highlighting the deviation of light rays and highlighting gravitational waves, it's not the same!

for the deflection of light rays, indeed the Eddington 1919 experiment was criticized because it was doubtful because of its insufficient precision (but at the time it was hailed as an essential result !!). But since then there have been many measurements of this deviation, including the gravitational lens phenomenon which has been observed for a long time: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lentille_gravitationnelle

For gravitational waves, indeed the first indirect proof was provided by the study of the movement of binary pulsars, which showed that they lost energy by emitting "something" (which could hardly be anything other than OG) , in the 70s, and their direct measurement was possible with the LIGO and VIRGO interferometers, there much more recently as you know (5 years ago).
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