Replace the wind?

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Christophe
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View Christophe » 04/03/10, 12:50

dirk pitt wrote:on your diagram, it is easily realized that the red counter-torque is easily taken over by the tension of the cables on the wire mesh arms when an angle will begin to form between the cable and the arm.


Yes, to a certain extent the cables are going against the couple

BUT with a torque of 1 MW and a necessarily low speed of rotation (less than 1000 RPM) I allow myself to doubt a little ... of this "recovery" ... and I am not talking about the rapid variations in wind / power / couple...


dirk pitt wrote:as I said, the more the torque increases, the more the angle between this arm and the cable will increase, thus increasing the counter-torque exerted by the pulling force of the cable.
it is not necessary that the angle exceeds 90 °, but the couple grew well before. simply put arms long enough so that the pulling force (fixed) generates the desired counter-torque for the desired maximum angle.


Uh yes it should not exceed 90 ° because it would mean that the ball crashed and begins to dig underground : Cheesy: : Cheesy:

I remain skeptical about the ability to square this couple in this configuration ...
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nonoLeRobot
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View nonoLeRobot » 04/03/10, 12:59

especially that (subject to wind stability) the more wind, the more torque there is but at the same time the more the cables are stretched so there must be a way to choose the length of the arms to always counteract the torque.

The concept in any case is quite brilliant, on the other hand I find it hard to believe in its feasibility.

Shadows, dangers, floating tons of 6 stuff, the cables themselves must be huge etc.
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FPLM
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View FPLM » 04/03/10, 13:53

Hello everybody
I had worked on an almost similar idea in the very high atmosphere but based on electrostatics and thermal electrodynamics between the tropopause and stratopause (1). If the potential difference is more than attractive, the feasibility proved to be too expensive, unreliable and even dangerous.
What happens if a cable breaks? It's giving reason to our Gallic ancestors ... : Lol:
Not to mention, a good part of the mass must be a very light gas (hydrogen or helium), which is a constant maintenance to prevent leaks ...
6 tons in free fall uncontrolled (no levitation system or even guidance) and accelerated for several miles, it hurts.
The troposphere is the densest and most turbulent area of ​​the atmosphere. The movement is highly variable (convection, circulation) but permanent.
To allow a certain balance of the whole (base-> link-> collector), it is necessary to go much higher. But suddenly, the higher you go, the more unsuitable wind power becomes.
It's a bit like the space elevator, it's sci-fi ...

ref.
(1) - simplistic presentation of "the astro-electrostatic"
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Remundo
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View Remundo » 04/03/10, 14:18

Dirk Pitt is right and Christophe too ...

By isolating the beam of attachment, here are the external forces
Image

mg is the weight of the beam
R is the reaction of the rotor on the beam (including a drag Tr and lift Po)
T is the cable tension.
C is the rotor torque on the generator, assumed to be integral with the beam

In order of magnitude, Po is worth the weight of the whole system (cable, generator, rotor ...)

The balance of the beam gives:

T + R + mg = 0 (in vectors ...)

OA x T + OG xmg + C = 0 (in vector and vector product)

A very (very) fast calculation shows that at the limit suggested by Dirk (horizontal beam, vertical T down, and is worth about Po), and neglecting the weight of the beam

OA Po = C (gross weight total x lever arm = rotor torque)

To avoid turning over, you need a long beam (large OA), a large total weight of the wind turbine (Po with the sign close) and a small rotor torque (C).

And well it's not won that the beam does not turn around ... : Idea: car:
OA is short because the idea is to have a maximum of cable
Po is weak because light structure preferably
C is big because big lever of the wind on the rotor

:P
Last edited by Remundo the 05 / 03 / 10, 00: 56, 1 edited once.
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FPLM
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View FPLM » 04/03/10, 14:35

Nice demonstration Remundo.
In addition, given the scheme, the slightest wind side wind turbine will tend to turn on itself and twist the 2 cables. We can easily imagine the rest.
And I do not even mention the strong vertical currents of convection, perfectly able to tear or worse to flatten 6 tons of matter as if it were a feather ...
Pure sci-fi ...

[Edit]
nonolerobot wrote:The concept in any case is pretty awesome

Heuuu ... Bof. : Lol:
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Remundo
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View Remundo » 04/03/10, 14:52

Indeed, Fplm,

This is not the first time that we have been shown great spinning machines connected by cables to the ground and carried by the buoyancy of Archimedes.

It is attractive to go for the powerful winds at 1 or 2 km high, but there are some very important technical difficulties in this matter.

And then the risks for aviation, accidental falls on the ground ... not obvious. :?
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Alain G
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View Alain G » 04/03/10, 14:54

I saw the program in question and it works but provide 1000 kw returns to the utopia because with only a few hundred watts, he faced a strong problem of structural deformation and expected performance was not yet at the appointment during the presentation of the show.
:?
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Remundo
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View Remundo » 04/03/10, 15:05

we do not have all the data, themselves perhaps not more.

It's in their interest to make a long beam ... and to calculate well the drag, the lift : Idea:

There are also problems of stiffness to adjust ... and wind direction (requires a monocable with pivot on the ground to prevent twisting, and also a kind of wind vane to steer the rotor.

Then the reliability (what about a brutal helium leak by collision / accident)

Oh dear : Lol:
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Alain G
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View Alain G » 04/03/10, 15:19

Hi Rémundo!


The big problem is that the restraint cables that are at the same time the carriers of the energy have a certain weight and limit the height of the system!

It must be taken into account! A small turbine can not climb very high because the weight of the cable cancels the lift of the system!
:|
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highfly-addict
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View highfly-addict » 04/03/10, 17:36

Hello everyone !

Well, maybe I'll write nonsense:

Why not just imagine hanging a rotor under a captive wing?

That would solve the problem of the torque, the return to the ground in the event of breakage of the cable, the costs related to the helium and even one would probably increase the usable speed range, right?

We know how to autopilot.
We know how to mount paragliders to more than 800 m with an ultra-simple winch.

So ?
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