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Capt_Maloche
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by Capt_Maloche » 24/11/09, 12:21

kouillon wrote:
... lol! If your question is still rather vague, I understand that you are stumbling on the eternal problem of modern physics: how to understand what we can not imagine !?
...
If we summarize:
a photon is a corpuscle whose calculation of the position responds only to a probabilistic law called a wave function, and that is why a photon is both a wave and a corpuscle!

Ironically, it's because he wanted to philosophize about it that Einstein never advanced in the theory of universal reunification, and I think that's a lesson to remember!

Einstein never accepted that a probabilistic equation defines reality. Doing quantum physics, it is to accept that a probability is the reality !

We can philosophize the above if we want, but it's a mistake! ...

In short, it is a mistake to believe that science stumbles on it! What stands in the way is our ability to understand how a probability can be a just law.


Indeed, here I am

it reminds me The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy with the vessel with improbability generator :D

Morceau chooses wrote:An important practical advice given by the Guide is to always carry a towel with you. It allows indeed, in addition to all its optional uses, to show people that we meet that we have an irreproachable hygiene and thus puts them a priori in good provisions vis-à-vis the foreign traveler (always the subject to prejudice elsewhere). In addition, if a person has a bath towel, we deduce that he has everything else and we are therefore willing to lend him.


So in short, a new science is emerging, probabilistic science
but it is only a mathematical representation, and a priori imperfect

So, for you, "light" is made up of particles whose state can be described with a wave function; would light be the expression of photon activity?
A wave or a particle? : Cheesy:

nevertheless, should we understand that this "object" can be both at the same time?

as in Young's slit experiment which describes interference and shows that light is a wave

Image

Until there are not enough photons ...

I deduce that our "representation" of this "object" if there is one, cannot be imaged by any macroscopic example (everyday life what) yet at the macroscopic scale, the notions of energy, of power whereas 'they are intangible and have been perfectly mastered to me,

in the same vein, I would like to know the opinion of a specialist in the field to share his "vision" accustomed that he would be to manipulate this notion

Chopped on Wiki:
every quantum system and therefore every particle is described by a wave function which codes the probability density [3] of any measurable variable (also called observable). The position of a particle is an example of one of these variables. So before an observation is made, the position of the particle is described in terms of probability waves.

The two slits can be considered as two secondary sources for these probability waves: the two waves propagate from them and interfere (see diagram on the right ⇒).

On the photographic plate, there is what is called a reduction of the wave packet, or a decoherence of the wave function: the photon materializes, with a probability given by the wave function: raised to some places (shiny bangs), weak or zero in others (dark bangs).

This experiment also illustrates an essential characteristic of quantum mechanics. Until an observation is made, the position of a particle is described in terms of probability waves, but after the particle is observed (or measured), it is described by a fixed value.
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by kouillon » 24/11/09, 13:59

Capt_Maloche wrote:nevertheless, should we understand that this "object" can be both at the same time?


Yes! That's why I'm talking about the schrodinger cat experience: it may not be one, may be the other, it is both at the same time. Einstein rightly said "God does not play dice" because he refused that a proba is the answer to a question, and he considered this solution insufficient. For example, imagine that I want to work out the probability of an event "my kid at the average in math" from the statistical study of its course ... I draw a graph, I calculate the standard deviation and I determine for example that he has a 2% chance of having between 20 and 10 ... In this case, I obtain a probabilistic formula which in reality is the consequence of other factors which I have ignored. By racking my brains, I could replace this probabilistic equation with a more deterministic equation involving other variables such as the number of hours of revision, his IQ, the amount of alcohol he drinks in the week or whether he has a girlfriend or not. This function would then effectively replace my 11st method, and Einstein would be happy. But in quantum physics, this 1nd method would not exist! It's not that we can't find it, it's that it doesn't have the right to exist!

If there were a deterministic equation for the position of the photon during its propagation, it would no longer behave like a wave but only like a corpuscle. From a mathematical point of view, it's like trying to solve x² = 1. the solution is x = 1 AND x = -1.

So in short, a new science is emerging, probabilistic science


Not at all ! Probas are a mathematical tool, just like complex numbers. In math, a proba is nothing mysterious and does not in itself represent a science. It is in physics that we give a different meaning to a probability (although we prefer to say that it is in physics that we understand what a proba is): we accept it as an answer, and if when you play the lottery it determines what your chances of winning, in physics, it describes superimposed states.

however on the macroscopic scale, the notions of energy, of power while they are immaterial have been perfectly mastered,


Take the case of radioactivity: how do you measure the stability of an isotope? In half life! Why ? Because decay is a quantum phenomenon responding to a probabilistic rule! If we observe one and only one uranium 235 nucleus, we can say that it has a probability of decay of 0.5 over a period of 4 billion years ... There is no formula that can say "it going to disintegrate in 4, 3, 2, 1 ... now! " In 4 billion years, maybe it will still be there, maybe not ... That's what quantum physics says ...

But now, if you take 10 kg of 235 uranium, in 4 billions of years, you can be sure that there will remain 5 kg ... Why? Simply because you will apply your law on billions of billions of nuclei, and finally, a proba that you apply a sufficient number of times ended up becoming a rule: I lose half of my mass in 4 billions of years !!!

Newton did not need to know the nature of gravity (besides at the time, we believed in ether) to find him a rule of general and deterministic application. The way gravity works on our scale is only the consequence of a probability applied countless times per unit of time on the quantum scale.

If I could run from a billion billion times a second and I averaged my throws, on your scale, I would answer a macro-law: I generate the number 3.5, and you could boast of master this law perfectly and you could exploit it in your calculations, on a macro scale, it would be perfectly fair!

For Young's Slots, it's EXACTLY the same! The result of the impact of the photon after its passage in the slot responds to a probabilistic law: it has a good chance of typing here, less beating there. on a hundred photons that pass through the slot, you do not see much. On billions of photons, it becomes rays and a probability seems to become something concrete.
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by Remundo » 24/11/09, 15:43

Ah well, a Kouillon who likes proba.

Nice nickname :P
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by gegyx » 24/11/09, 16:11

kouillon wrote:If there were a deterministic equation for the position of the photon during its propagation, it would no longer behave like a wave but only like a corpuscle. Mathematically, it's like trying to solve x² = 1.
the solution is x = 1 AND x = -1 ..


Except that there, I think it's x = 1 OR x = -1
The solution for the root² of 1 = l 1 l
Possible solutions are = [1, -1]
I.e. 1 OU -1

Because 1 * -1 = -1

Bad example for your probalistic demonstration.
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by renaud67 » 24/11/09, 16:49

I think that the two solutions (1, -1) are suitable as the two wave / corspuscule states apply to the photon ... :?:
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by kouillon » 24/11/09, 17:34

gegyx wrote:
kouillon wrote:If there were a deterministic equation for the position of the photon during its propagation, it would no longer behave like a wave but only like a corpuscle. Mathematically, it's like trying to solve x² = 1.
the solution is x = 1 AND x = -1 ..


Except that there, I think it's x = 1 OR x = -1
The solution for the root² of 1 = l 1 l
Possible solutions are = [1, -1]
I.e. 1 OU -1

Because 1 * -1 = -1

Bad example for your probalistic demonstration.


It is not a proba, it is an illustration with a binary case to try to explain that in MQ, the answer is dissolved in all the possible cases! If I had said that when I throw a coin in the air, it is both heads and tails, you would have told me but no, it is either on heads or on heads, and you in turn would have illustrated the fact that I didn't understand anything.

I think that the two solutions (1, -1) are suitable as the two wave / corspuscule states apply to the photon ...


No, not even, it was just to have an example with a concrete binary case, a bit like Schrodinger's cat.
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by kistinie » 24/11/09, 21:02

To the probabilistic problem, the theory of the influence of consciousness is the answer which to this day seems to me to be enriched by the greatest number of coherent facts if we try to open up a little.

This is also one of the points of introduction to this subject when I mentioned the increasingly tangible link between matter and spirit.
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by Capt_Maloche » 24/11/09, 21:29

without playing on words, I found the analogy interesting and this "light" gave me to see a new horizon of reflection

There are of course other things that tickle me Image like for example the electron spin

which would be the origin of the magnetism of the permanent materials

here is another "trick" that I can not conceive
As much as I perfectly grasp magnetism on a macroscopic scale

is this the same analogy?
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by kouillon » 25/11/09, 03:17

Capt_Maloche wrote:for example the electron spin which would be the origin of the magnetism of permanent materials

is this the same analogy?


Pushpin, there, it's already more hassle in that we no longer speak of a particle, but of an intrinsic property of a particle ...

As a quantum property, it is subject to the principle of uncertainty, and that is the only analogy I see there. In fact, we note the spin as a vector with 3 components whose norm it is possible to determine with precision (therefore the value of the spin: 0, 1/2, 1, 3/2 if we admit supersymmetry or 2) and the size of one of these 3 components, but it then becomes impossible to calculate the values ​​of the 2 remaining components. On the other hand, there is no question of speed or position as for particles, so the rest of the analogy does not hold.

To the probabilistic problem, the theory of the influence of consciousness is the answer which to this day seems to me to be enriched by the greatest number of coherent facts if we try to open up a little.


And go ... I still have to maintain my position, there are still big lights on this forum ! I challenge anyone to find an experiment that would defeat a quantum prediction based on a large number of occurrences!

Go, concretely, I challenge anyone to change the half life of an unstable isotope by focusing on death. This is pure proba! I suggest you experiment with O14 whose half-life is close to 20 hours! it seems pretty good to start! If you manage to highlight an extension or reduction of its half-life of 1 minute, I am willing to become a Raelian!
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by kistinie » 25/11/09, 09:54

It is an idea..You would make a very suitable raélien :-)) but in this case an element whose half life is a little longer seems better suited to me.

The best known current successful experiments are on living matter (germination) or on a geranium leaf.
http://www.theintentionexperiment.com/t ... experiment
http://www.theintentionexperiment.com/t ... eriments-2

On matter in simple molecular form, a priori inert, I do not know if it has already been successfully tested and published, but it should.
Besides, I very much doubt that the army has not already been there.

From heads of state to big bosses and intelligence, to the French gendarmerie which has a standard discharge form ... all use mediums. Mediumity being one of the ancestral applications of the link between matter and spirit.

It is very much so much to stop condescendingly considering approaches to the world that are not based on academic physics.

The two approaches are compatible.

Finally, it is important to think carefully about the fact that an experience of the matter-mind type will no longer require a minimum of serenity and at least, operator neutrality. Just as in the material world it is easier to destroy than to build, the aggregation of a common directed thought will be easier to break than to build.

No doubt this is the fault of the experiments carried out by the University of Nice where the ambient atmosphere was probably very condescending, suspicious or even hostile.
Organic carrots are not grown in sewage sludge.

So an experience yes, but in serene conditions, with neutral observers or favorable to the project, which is not obvious.


Now without going far, without becoming a sectarian, who does not notice that the plants you love grow better. Any gardener worthy of the name knows this. This fact should challenge us.

To return to physics and zero point, it will be the same.
The operator's Y factor will be important, as will the environment.
For the cat or the EPR what we call random or probabilistic could be the result of our psyche. The human psyche being a very unstable phenomenon, influenced by the moon, its boss, TV, weather ... it could therefore be perceived as random.


This is also the research project that I am implementing this year. Without going into details, the principle is to equip my 40-foot trimaran sailboat with an active lightning rod system, a permanent magnet motor with FCEM recovery, and therefore two systems potentially generating distortions of the electromagnetic fields,

The experience is planned in 2 phases.
Ph1: the crew is positive, united and favorable to the theory of a link between matter and spirit.

Ph2: The crew is septic / hostile

The experience consists in measuring and collecting qualitative and quantitative elements over a period of several months:
The behavior of the boat.
Breakdowns
Performances ...
The behaviors of the occupants.
The climatic and electrical parameters encountered.
I think that the climatic impact could be the most marked event of the experience.

The lightning rod is currently in testing since April
The engine will start in early January
The boat is refit, over 1600 hours planned there are 600 left to do
So start of the maneuvers at the end of summer 2010 or before if I find help.
Last edited by kistinie the 25 / 11 / 09, 10: 57, 6 edited once.
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