Liquid nitrogen generator engine

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Eric DUPONT
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Re: Liquid nitrogen generator engine




by Eric DUPONT » 25/03/21, 07:16

according to my calculations, the minimum energy to obtain 1 kg of liquid nitrogen is 250 wh and conversely 1 kg of liquid nitrogen can provide 250 wh / kg.
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Re: Liquid nitrogen generator engine




by ABC2019 » 25/03/21, 07:40

Eric Dupont wrote:according to my calculations, the minimum energy to obtain 1 kg of liquid nitrogen is 250 wh and conversely 1 kg of liquid nitrogen can provide 250 wh / kg.

in theory, all thermal machines can be reversible, in practice there are always losses.
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Re: Liquid nitrogen generator engine




by Remundo » 25/03/21, 08:29

in fact we must see the reservoir of liquid N2 as a cold source, and the atmosphere as a hot source.

there are dithermic thermal machines which can almost reach Carnot's yields (Stirling cycle for example). We could consider helium gas machines.

A) A first machine acts as a refrigerator and cools the liquid N2 reserve (in practice this liquefies N2)
B) A second machine acts as a dither motor and heats the N2 reserve (concretely it vaporizes N2)

If you have a very large and very well insulated N2 reservoir, the heat losses can be quite low.

Theoretically, the overall efficiency of the system can be close to 1.

The fact of passing through a liquefied gas makes it possible to considerably reduce the volume of the cold source, and also to stabilize its temperature as long as 2 phases coexist there.
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Re: Liquid nitrogen generator engine




by Bardal » 25/03/21, 08:51

Remundo wrote:in fact we must see the reservoir of liquid N2 as a cold source, and the atmosphere as a hot source.

there are dithermic thermal machines which can almost reach Carnot's yields (Stirling cycle for example). We could consider helium gas machines.

A) A first machine acts as a refrigerator and cools the liquid N2 reserve (in practice this liquefies N2)
B) A second machine acts as a dither motor and heats the N2 reserve (concretely it vaporizes N2)

If you have a very large and very well insulated N2 reservoir, the heat losses can be quite low.

Theoretically, the overall efficiency of the system can be close to 1.

Passing through a liquefied gas considerably reduces the volume of the cold source.


But Carnot's efficiency remains valid, and is far from reaching 1, even under ideal conditions (which, moreover, are never achieved).
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Re: Liquid nitrogen generator engine




by Eric DUPONT » 25/03/21, 09:01

the losses which make that we arrive at an efficiency of 60% are only due to friction, to the losses of the exchanger which does not exchange perfectly, to thermal losses by convection. otherwise the machine is 100% reversible, it takes as much energy to produce liquid nitrogen as the liquid nitrogen releases. As Remundo says. the advantage of liquid nitrogen is the high energy density of liquid nitrogen. the other advantage is that it is easier to reduce heat losses compared to heat storage. view that a cold source does not radiate. all energy storage systems with hot and cold sources are suceptiblle to reach an efficiency of 60%.
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Re: Liquid nitrogen generator engine




by ABC2019 » 25/03/21, 09:09

Eric Dupont wrote:the losses which make that we arrive at an efficiency of 60% are only due to friction, to the losses of the exchanger which does not exchange perfectly, to thermal losses by convection. otherwise the machine is 100% reversible, it takes as much energy to produce liquid nitrogen as the liquid nitrogen releases. As Remundo says. the advantage of liquid nitrogen is the high energy density of liquid nitrogen. the other advantage is that it is easier to reduce heat losses compared to heat storage. view that a cold source does not radiate. all energy storage systems with hot and cold sources are suceptiblle to reach an efficiency of 60%.

I haven't looked at it in detail, but I think the 60% efficiency is mostly due to the fact that when you compress, the excess heat is dissipated to the outside instead of being stored as "hot" to be. then recovered in the relaxation - which of course would remove the advantage of your cold storage. In reality, it is dissipated into the outside at ambient temperature, and then heat is taken from the ambient medium for evaporation, and that is all losses and irreversibility of the process.
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Re: Liquid nitrogen generator engine




by Remundo » 25/03/21, 09:24

bardal wrote:But Carnot's efficiency remains valid, and is far from reaching 1, even under ideal conditions (which, moreover, are never achieved).

this is not a problem because we benefit from the cooling efficiency in the process. Be TC the temperature of the hot source and TF that of the cold source.

Efficiencies of a dither motor (by calling QF the heat transfer at the cold source and QC at the hot source):
* RmC=W/QC=1-TF/TC=(TC-TF)/TC
* RmF=W/QF=(TC-TF)/TF

Ditherme cooling efficiency Ef = TF / (TC – TF)

We note that RmF x Ef = 1

If we call QF thermal sampling in the N2 reservoir

(D) in destocking, the work recovered is such that: Wrecup / QF = RmF

(S) and also in storage, the storage work is such that: QF / Wstock = Ef

by multiplying member by member the last 2 relations (D) x (S), we see that Wrecup / Wstock = RmF x Ef

Gold with Carnot cycles or assimilated (Stirling, Ericsson ...): RmF x Ef = 1

By taking into account various losses, we will obviously be below, but probably above 50%, and maybe even around 70%

In any case there is no theoretical obstacle to having a very good yield (limit 100%) by this cryogenic storage.
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Re: Liquid nitrogen generator engine




by Eric DUPONT » 25/03/21, 09:33

in fact it is possible to have a theoretical thermodynamic storage efficiency of 110% if at the moment of restoring the energy with liquid nitrogen we have a hot source of 70 ° c instead of 15 °, such as rejection thermal plant, recycling center.
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Re: Liquid nitrogen generator engine




by Eric DUPONT » 25/03/21, 11:47

Unlike high view power, nterk stores heat of compression in the surrounding environment. higviewpower is at 60% yield and has just raised 140 million euros. NTERK just needs 80000 euros. once the proof is realized for NTERK to raise as higview power 140 million euros, the value of NTERK will be hundredfold .... at least.
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Re: Liquid nitrogen generator engine




by Exnihiloest » 25/03/21, 19:37

Eric Dupont wrote:the thermodynamic cycle is 100% reversible. the heat is evacuated during the compression towards the ambient environment then recovered during the expansion.

Compression is mechanical work which is accompanied by heat dissipation. As a result, the compressed gas will perform less mechanical work on expansion than on compression, and the delta can only be partially recovered from the heat.
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