ABC Machine Poll

Innovations, ideas or patents for sustainable development. Decrease in energy consumption, reduction of pollution, improvement of yields or processes ... Myths or reality about inventions of the past or the future: the inventions of Tesla, Newman, Perendev, Galey, Bearden, cold fusion ...

Can the ABC machine exist?

You can select 1 option

 
 
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GuyGadeboisTheBack
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Re: ABC Machine Poll




by GuyGadeboisTheBack » 18/02/21, 23:11

As a conclusion

Of all the authors from our thermodynamic point of view, E. Morin aside, none had referred to any production of negentropic organization from the ambient “disorder”. We had with Schrödinger and Von Bertalanffy a principle of "order by order" characterizing the behavior of open "living" systems. And we had with Prigogine this same principle of "order by order" characterizing the behavior of "mechanical" open systems. We now know that there is a principle of production of "order from disorder", namely of neguentropic production of living things and their environment, the Biosphere, from and with the entropy of the surrounding environment, which renews and / or completes the principle of order by order. Vernadsky showed us that without life, without "active negentropic organization", there could be no "entropic disorder"! There can only be this eternally subject entropic order of a lunar surface incapable of founding, beyond the day / night variations of temperature, the stability of its internal temperature, like living organisms, which maintain their temperature and their Ph within extremely narrow limits, and reproduce this process within their habitat, the Biosphere. In other words, he demonstrated to us, and E. Morin confirmed that, without construction, there is no destruction possible, the reverse being just as true. This is how Vernadsky's principles become “contradictory” to the second principle! They tell us that life neither escapes nor violates the entropic principle, but that it “contradicts” it. Without denying it, she uses him to exist, she puts him in her pocket. Life coexists with him, as the female principle has always coexisted with the male principle, in bad or good conditions, whether he wants it, ignores it or refuses it, and whatever the strength of his muscles, the power of his word or the domination of his thought. This does not suppose that Carnot's principle extended by Clausius is no longer master in "its" domain (Bonsack: "if a principle has an exception, it is no longer a principle"). No, the problem is simply that, whatever he expresses and defines, whatever he says and claims, there is, quite simply, an "other" expression which, simultaneously to him, but in his own domain, that of life. , subsists in spite of itself and through it, whatever its tendency to universal domination over time and space, and in passing over men, their thought and their economy. To the mythical power of entropy, "living matter", biogenic matter (free matter), "living organisms", thus oppose their own "reality", just as universal. This reality "coexists" with the entropic principle. And it doesn't matter whether it's parallel or opposite, above or below, inside or next to it.
https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00 ... 2/document
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Re: ABC Machine Poll




by ABC2019 » 19/02/21, 05:08

Obamot wrote:That remains your hypothesis ... I absolutely do not see why, on the contrary, he would not have told you:
- “Ah yes sorry you are right ..." [And so on]

for exactly the same reasons as you ...
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Re: ABC Machine Poll




by ABC2019 » 19/02/21, 05:15

GuyGadeboisLeRetour wrote:As a conclusion

Of all the authors from our thermodynamic point of view, except E. Morin, none had referred to any production of negentropic organization from the ambient “disorder”.

Yes and ? do you think this is contradictory to what lord k says?

It is absolutely not: try planting tomatoes in a black box but well heated, and ask yourself why the seedlings burst, after having exhausted the stock of sugars of the seed. Or remember the discussion about going eight months without eating.

Oh yes, by the way, why don't living things get their energy from thermal fluctuations, if possible?

if life has never figured out how to do it in 4 billion years of evolution, there must be a reason ...

PS: I read what the author of the thesis said in his introduction, he is swimming in the dark about what he calls "contradicting the second principle", but obviously he did not digest what said Prigogine, who nevertheless explained dissipative structures in a very enlightening way. This is not the subject of the thread, but you can open a thread on "does life contradict the second principle?" . The short answer is: no.
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Re: ABC Machine Poll




by Obamot » 19/02/21, 06:07

ABC2019 wrote:
Obamot wrote:That remains your hypothesis ... I absolutely do not see why, on the contrary, he would not have told you:
- “Ah yes sorry you are right ..." [And so on]

for exactly the same reasons as you ...

Sorry but I have nothing to do with it, that would be HIS reasons in this case!

Find something else ...;)
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Re: ABC Machine Poll




by ABC2019 » 19/02/21, 06:21

Obamot wrote:
ABC2019 wrote:
Obamot wrote:That remains your hypothesis ... I absolutely do not see why, on the contrary, he would not have told you:
- “Ah yes sorry you are right ..." [And so on]

for exactly the same reasons as you ...

Sorry but I have nothing to do with it, that would be HIS reasons in this case!

Find something else ...;)

well if you do the same thing as him, refuse to admit that I am right when I have demonstrated it rigorously, and that no counter-demonstration has been proposed by anyone, including Thibado.

So if you ask why he does not recognize him, the answer is in you: for the same reason that you do not recognize him.

Note that on the results of the poll: 1 is the normal answer, 3 is very unlikely but a priori we could defend it, and 2 is certainly false: there are still 30% of the posters here who chose it.
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Re: ABC Machine Poll




by Obamot » 19/02/21, 06:43

Not “you” ... not me, my answer does not matter.
I don't get involved ...

Find something else ...;) : Cheesy:
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Re: ABC Machine Poll




by ABC2019 » 19/02/21, 07:01

Obamot wrote:Not “you” ... not me, my answer does not matter.
I don't get involved ...

if you order me "find something else", it is because you get involved, and that you have an opinion.

Personally, I have nothing other to defend my position than to demonstrate it by logical reasoning, reasoning that I have already done, and which shows without possible dispute (and without anyone having explained why it would be wrong. ), that the process would violate the second principle, since storing a work W from an enclosure at the temperature T would cause a total variation of the entropy of the negative Universe, equal to - W / T, and that the second principle states that all real processes correspond to a total change in entropy of the Universe positive or zero.

If my calculation is wrong I wait for someone to suggest another one, which has not been the case so far. And once again the only people who continue to argue against me on the subject are people who have confessed themselves to be incapable of making the slightest calculation of the variation of entropy (or even more simply of heat and work exchanged), in the simplest cases that we learn in the first year of college (transformations of an ideal gas) therefore which admit in fact to know nothing about the subject.

People who know a little about the subject know full well that all of my calculations are correct. ZERO people, including on the forum, knowing how to solve the exercise of my nephew, did not contest my calculation on graphene. The only contestants are those who are unable to do any thermo calculation.

I don't know of any other way to explain myself than to give rigorous demonstrations. If you want "something else" you won't get an answer. It is as if an Islamist told me "I only believe what is in the Koran, so prove to me that what you say is in the Koran". I am unable to give him this "proof", so we will stop there.
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Re: ABC Machine Poll




by Obamot » 19/02/21, 07:20

Tssss ...

The guy is having a bad time with a famous scientist and then we should be concerned ... : Cheesy:

I say no...

Find something else (or nothing, we don't care ... how is your nephew, did he manage to help you finally?) : Cheesy:
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Re: ABC Machine Poll




by reinoso » 19/02/21, 08:00

in physics no law is immutable (and even less a principle)
Here is the point of view of a renowned scientist


The Janus Point

A New Theory of Time

Julian Barbour is a profound and original thinker with the boldness to tackle some of nature's deepest problems. He is also a fine writer, and this renders his book - despite its conceptual depth - accessible to anyone who has pondered the mysteries of space and time
Martin Rees, Astronomer Royal and former President of the Royal Society

https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/111/111 ... PN0lD_cao4






Julian Barbour

Buy from

In The Janus Point renowned physicist Julian Barbour presents a major new solution to one of the most profound questions in physics - what is time? - with ground-breaking implications for the origin and destiny of our universe.

'Both a work of literature and a masterpiece of scientific thought' Lee Smolin

Time is perhaps the greatest mystery in physics. Despite the fact that the fundamental laws of physics don't distinguish between past and future, we do. And so, for over a century, the greatest minds have sought to understand why time seems to flow in one direction, ever forward. In The Janus Point, Julian Barbour, author of the classic The End of Time, offers a radically new answer: it doesn't.

Most physicists believe that the second law of thermodynamics, and the increase of disorder that it describes, forces an irreversible, unidirectional flow of time. Barbour shows why that argument fails and demonstrates instead that our universe isn't heading for disorder; rather, it emerged from it. At the heart of his argument is a new vision of the Big Bang that Barbour calls the Janus Point, from which time flows in two directions, its currents driven by the expansion of the universe and the growth of order in the galaxies, planets, and life itself.

Monumental in vision and scope, The Janus Point is not just a new theory of time: it's a hopeful argument about the destiny of our universe. While most physicists predict that the universe will become mired in disorder, Barbour sees the possibility that order - the stuff of life - can grow without bound.
Julian Barbour

Julian Barbour is a former Visiting Professor in Physics at the University of Oxford and author of the highly regarded The Discovery of Dynamics and the bestseller The End of Time. His papers have been published in the world's most prestigious scientific journals, including Nature, Proceedings of the Royal Society and Physical Review Letters and he has made numerous appearances on national radio, television and in various documentaries. The Janus Point is his first book in twenty years and the culmination of five decades' work.



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Re: ABC Machine Poll




by Remundo » 19/02/21, 08:52

the second principle and disorder ...

I also taught it etc ... with all the "bastringue".

I am not convinced that it applies to ALL areas.

for example ordered structures emerge from disorder:
1) the genesis of the Universe, starting from an arch-messy soup of particles, a quark gas in what seems most probable with our limited knowledge, having given the elementary particles, then atoms, molecules, systems solar etc ...
2) life on Earth: the existence of DNA molecules is for example fascinating of ordered complexity
3) we men, from the hominid branch, have brains that conceive and do rather orderly and complex things.

So if for my part I willingly agree to the 2nd principle in thermodynamics, I remain a little circumspect in other aspects of nature which do not systematically converge towards disorder.

However, I do not dream of making a monothermal engine. : Mrgreen: What the 2nd principle says, physically, is that only imbalances physicochemical quantities can generate exploitable ordered work.
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