Machines on numeraries true or intox ??

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BaudouinLabrique
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Re: boost the COP of a heat pump




by BaudouinLabrique » 24/02/18, 16:57

Central element which allowed me to render my habitat yet old positive energy (electricity, heating but also water including drinking water), a geothermal heat pump (PAC) (horizontal sensors) installed over 6 years ago and which gives me full satisfaction.

Despite extensive research on the Net, I did not find the answer to the following question:

For which material reasons (thermodynamics) and solidly argued, we have not developed a process
which would allow part of the heat produced by the heat pump (downstream) to be used to raise the starting temperature of the brine (upstream)?

Analogous to the fact that perpetual motion cannot exist in physics, I obviously know that with a COP of 1, it would be vain to believe that such an operation could prove to be positive, because one would inevitably suffer a loss; the application of such a process would then be counterproductive.

Regarding my CAP, I get the following COPs (last readings on the CAP on-board computer),
about:

- 7,2 (16 kWh) (21 ° glycol water)
- 6,8 (15 kWh) (… 19 °)
- 6,3 (14 kWh) (… 17 °)
- 5,9 (13 kWh) (… 15 ° or 14 °)
- 5,4 (12 kWh) (… 13 °)
- 5 (11 kWh) (… 12 ° or 11 °)
- 4.5 (9 kWh) (… 11 °, 10 ° or 9 °)
- 4 (9 kWh) (… 7 °)
- 3,7 (8 kWh) (… 5, 4 ° or 3 °)
- 3,2 (7 kWh) (… 2 °, 1 ° or -0 °)


NB The temperature of the collection soil never exceeds 16 ° (summer), but you should know that then, the glycol water warms up somewhat on the way to the heat pump, which explains the 21 ° etc. indicated (it also goes very quickly from 21 ° to 19 ° when the heat pump is operating).

Imagine then that we are using part of the heat produced by the heat pump to raise the starting temperature of the brine; concrete example: if the COP reaches for example 4,5 (water at 11 °) and the water is brought to 19 ° (the maximum tolerated by a heat pump is 20 °), the COP will therefore climb to 6,8, XNUMX.

Suppose (case) that the heat pump operates for one hour with a COP of 4,5 (consumption of 2,2kWh in this case), it should inevitably run less (30% less = 20 minutes saved) thanks raising the COP to 6,8; the heat pump should consume at least 30% less, resulting in a theoretical saving of 0,7 kWh. (°)
(°) I observe a similar phenomenon in summer when the heat pump only works for DHW: for the temperature of the water in the boiler to rise from 25 ° to 45 °, it then takes about fifteen minutes, while qu 'in the cold season, it usually takes an hour and a half to achieve the same result.

In such a case, the saving is every day by ¾ of 2,2 kWh and therefore around 1,6 kWh compared to what occurs in the cold season. I know that it will then be necessary to remove the “lost” part of the heat produced which was used to heat the glycol water upstream.

Having not yet been able to do this type of test, given the (experimental) equipment to be added, we could estimate the economy at around 0,5 kWh or even less but the operation could therefore theoretically only be positive.
By transposing this reasoning this year to all of the heating months from September to mid-May at the latest, we can therefore imagine a very interesting economy of scale.

Armed with this reflection, I contacted the technical service (for professionals) of my PAC brand.
The person I had online and who seemed to know very well about PAC, replied that "it was not done" (dot bar)! and therefore without giving me (because she ignored them !!!) the technical, rational reasons which would justify the irremediable absence of recourse to such a process.
It roughly reminded me of "Monkey theorem" !!!

However, a better COP could be obtained and the CAP will inevitably run for a shorter time and this will therefore lead a priori:

1 ° lower consumption,

2 ° less removal of calories in the ground and underground, there will therefore be a smaller drop in temperature,
which is another factor that will shorten the operating time of the heat pump and also increase the consumption economy.

3 ° knowing that the return glycol water is at a temperature of about four degrees lower than on the outward journey.
due to the fact that the glycol water will be heated on the outward journey, it will therefore have a higher return temperature than without the contribution of this system.
Logically, the catchment basement will inevitably cool less quickly and will therefore offer brine at a slightly higher temperature.

Subsidiary question :
Use part of my photovoltaic production (via a 2kWh heater or boiler) to heat the brine.
Here, too, I have the impression that, given the heat pump's multiplier factor, the balance could be positive (lower total electricity consumption than at the start given the drop in electricity consumption of the heat pump)
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Re: boost the COP of a heat pump




by sicetaitsimple » 24/02/18, 17:45

BaudouinLabrique wrote:
Despite extensive research on the Net, I did not find the answer to the following question:

For which material reasons (thermodynamics) and solidly argued, we have not developed a process
which would allow part of the heat produced by the heat pump (downstream) to be used to raise the starting temperature of the brine (upstream)?



My God...
Think 15s before writing 50 lines: a heat pump (in heating use) is made to transfer heat from a "cold" environment to a "hot" environment, not to transfer heat from a "hot" environment towards the cold medium.
The COP whatever it is does not change your heating needs, if you transfer heat from the hot environment to the cold environment you will have to produce this same heat in addition by the heat pump.
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Re: boost the COP of a heat pump




by BaudouinLabrique » 24/02/18, 17:50

sicetaitsimple wrote:
BaudouinLabrique wrote:
Despite extensive research on the Net, I did not find the answer to the following question:

For what material reasons (thermodynamics) and solidly argued, we have not developed a process
which would allow part of the heat produced by the heat pump (downstream) to be used to raise the starting temperature of the brine (upstream)?



My God...
Think 15s before writing 50 lines: a heat pump (in heating use) is made to transfer heat from a "cold" environment to a "hot" environment, not to transfer heat from a "hot" environment towards the cold medium.

We do not then come back to the monkey theorem: "this is not done", period!
I would like a real and therefore solid argument
sicetaitsimple wrote:The COP whatever it is does not change your heating needs, if you transfer heat from the hot environment to the cold environment you will have to produce this same heat in addition by the heat pump.

yes but since it has the capacity to sort more calories (COP) from cold environment, as you say, explain to me physically (if you can) why there is no gain ...
Example today: the glycol water is at 45 ° and the heat pump draws> 3 °; an electric water heater would consume> three times more electricity to achieve this (because the COP is currently> XNUMX)
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«There are those who see things as they are and wonder why. Me, I see them as they could be and I say to myself: why not! (Sir Bernard Shaw)
« The future belongs to those who see the possibilities before they become obvious. (Theodore Levitt).
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Re: boost the COP of a heat pump




by sicetaitsimple » 24/02/18, 18:30

BaudouinLabrique wrote:yes but since it has the capacity to sort more calories (COP) from cold environment, as you say, explain to me physically (if you can) why there is no gain ...


The COP is not representative of "the ability to sort more calories (COP) of the cold environment, ", this is representative of the ability to extract as many calories from the cold environment while consuming less electricity (while operating for less time).

If today your heating needs are for example 6kW with a COP of 3, you extract 4,5kW from your soil and consume 1,5kW of electricity.
If you heat your glycol water by a contribution of 1kW taken from the hot or cold water of the heating circuit, certainly your COP will increase but your heating need will go to 7kW.

I'll let you do the math.
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BaudouinLabrique
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Re: boost the COP of a heat pump




by BaudouinLabrique » 24/02/18, 19:07

sicetaitsimple wrote:If today your heating needs are for example 6kW with a COP of 3, you extract 4,5kW from your soil and consume 1,5kW of electricity.
If you heat your glycol water by a contribution of 1kW taken from the hot or cold water of the heating circuit, certainly your COP will increase but your heating need will go to 7kW.
I'll let you do the math.

The question remains: the increase in COP under such conditions will make it possible to produce more heat (geometric effect) and therefore consume less electricity; If I understand you correctly, you suggest that this gain in electricity (consumption and heat pump) will not be greater than the kWh of electricity supplied upstream to heat the brine.

Stay here Subsidiary question (reminder) :
Use part of my photovoltaic production (via a 2kWh heater or boiler) to heat the brine.
Here, too, I have the impression that, given the heat pump's multiplier factor, the balance could be positive (lower total electricity consumption than at the start given the drop in electricity consumption of the heat pump)
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«There are those who see things as they are and wonder why. Me, I see them as they could be and I say to myself: why not! (Sir Bernard Shaw)
« The future belongs to those who see the possibilities before they become obvious. (Theodore Levitt).
sicetaitsimple
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Re: boost the COP of a heat pump




by sicetaitsimple » 24/02/18, 19:18

BaudouinLabrique wrote:
Stay here Subsidiary question (reminder) :
Use part of my photovoltaic production (via a 2kWh heater or boiler) to heat the brine.
Here, too, I have the impression that, given the heat pump's multiplier factor, the balance could be positive (lower total electricity consumption than at the start given the drop in electricity consumption of the heat pump)


I love the "reminder"!
Well calculate for yourself, I don't have the items!
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Ahmed
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Re: Machines on real cash or intox ??




by Ahmed » 24/02/18, 19:25

I'm starting to understand your idea BL: as you have a multiplier coef, you reinject upstream what is produced downstream; with several loops, one can imagine an unlimited production, even a runaway of the system! : Lol: When it works too well, it's because we made a mistake somewhere ... 8)
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BaudouinLabrique
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Re: Machines on real cash or intox ??




by BaudouinLabrique » 24/02/18, 19:54

Ahmed wrote:I'm starting to understand your idea BL: as you have a multiplier coef, you reinject upstream what is produced downstream; with several loops, one can imagine an unlimited production, even a runaway of the system! : Lol: When it works too well, it's because we made a mistake somewhere ... 8)

Yes, but where?
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«There are those who see things as they are and wonder why. Me, I see them as they could be and I say to myself: why not! (Sir Bernard Shaw)
« The future belongs to those who see the possibilities before they become obvious. (Theodore Levitt).
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BaudouinLabrique
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Re: boost the COP of a heat pump




by BaudouinLabrique » 24/02/18, 19:55

sicetaitsimple wrote:
BaudouinLabrique wrote:
Stay here Subsidiary question (reminder) :
Use part of my photovoltaic production (via a 2kWh heater or boiler) to heat the brine.
Here, too, I have the impression that, given the heat pump's multiplier factor, the balance could be positive (lower total electricity consumption than at the start given the drop in electricity consumption of the heat pump)


I love the "reminder"!
Well calculate for yourself, I don't have the items!

What elements do you need to do the calculation?

NB I will not be able to answer your future messages before tomorrow noon
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«There are those who see things as they are and wonder why. Me, I see them as they could be and I say to myself: why not! (Sir Bernard Shaw)
« The future belongs to those who see the possibilities before they become obvious. (Theodore Levitt).
sicetaitsimple
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posts: 9772
Registration: 31/10/16, 18:51
Location: Lower Normandy
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Re: boost the COP of a heat pump




by sicetaitsimple » 24/02/18, 20:09

BaudouinLabrique wrote:
sicetaitsimple wrote:I love the "reminder"!
Well calculate for yourself, I don't have the items!

What elements do you need to do the calculation?

NB I will not be able to answer your future messages before tomorrow noon


Ah well, then! Not before noon tomorrow? It's nice to give me 16:00 p.m. to answer you!

No, it's up to you to do the math, you are never more convinced than when you put your hands in the grease.

So calculate the temperature rise of your brine if you heat it with a power of one kW, you will tell us after.
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