The operation of the water doping: chart?

Water injection in thermal engines and the famous "pantone engine". General informations. Press clippings and videos. Understanding and scientific explanations on the injection of water into engines: ideas for assemblies, studies, physico-chemical analyzes.
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by Woodcutter » 26/09/06, 19:37

We should ask our (student) physicist genius, I named François B, what he thinks ... : roll:
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Re: The operation of water doping: diagram?




by camel1 » 27/09/06, 00:56

Hi Christophe and the others!

I do not have much time to visit the site lately, but the fight continues! : Cheesy:

Christophe wrote:This diagram will no doubt help us in understanding water doping.

Image

Enlargement (reserved for members of the site):
https://www.econologie.com/file/restrict ... rammes.gif

Read the explanation of 2ieme diagram ... The similarities are striking with a doping water ... no? Without magic, without surunity, without breaking the principles ... no offense to all sellers of dreams or detractors of the process.

Little by little, the bird is nesting ... : Cheesy: : Cheesy:


Ben vi !! : Cheesy:

Me, I express this in images by comparing the "normal" cycle to a water hammer, and the pantone cycle to a strong push ...

That's right, the energy is deployed throughout the engine cycle, resulting in improved torque, not power, and a decrease in noise ...

It remains to be seen what kind of reaction occurs at that moment, and on it, I think I have my idea ...

In short, in my opinion, the role of the reactor is to prepare the aerosol air / wet vapor:

1 - warming it up (increase the energy level of microdroplets)
2 - electrifying it, by the intense friction on the metal walls. Since the metal is an electrical conductor, it means that it is traversed by free electrons, and that in this case, these electrons can easily be torn off by the clusters of water molecules that pass at high speed.

They find themselves electrified, negative charge ...

It has been known since childhood that two identical electrostatic charge elements repel each other ...
This is the case for our microdroplets, which will therefore be unable to "merge" during a collision (and to "play the firefighter" later in the combustion chamber!).

This electrified aerosol mixture is found compressed in the combustion chamber, up to a few tens of bar and around 400 ° C ...
PMH, the injection of diesel begins, the diesel ignites, the ambient temperature rises to more than 2000 ° C, and the water begins to burn ...
It is known that the water molecule cracks around 900 ° C.
If we put a mass of water molecules in an overheated atmosphere at 2000 ° C, the molecules of the periphery of the cluster will dissociate into H and 0, which, in this atmosphere will not fail to recombine in H2O, but this time, in the form of an isolated molecule, dry steam ... and 2300 ° C to the key ...

In the case of the engine, this exothermic reaction will generate a "free" work, which will be as much less than one asks for fossil fuel.

Each molecule of dissociated H2O will reveal its neighbor of lower rank, which goes to be exposed to everything ... it will thus occur a flame front that will propagate towards the center of the cluster.

It will "melt" all along the descent of the piston, releasing its energy as it goes, which explains for me the softening of the curve.

Speaking of curves, I will soon iron my 205 vibration test bench, and power bench with GE analyzer.

I think that with these data, we will be able to reconstruct the shape of the new (and the old) cycle - vibration analysis should be decisive ... :D


To conclude,
the reactor produces the electrification of the aerosol which passes through it,

- Cracking occurs in the combustion chamber.

- and above all, you need wet steam!

I let you think about it : Cheesy:

A + + +

Michel
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by Christophe » 27/09/06, 09:12

Woodcutter wrote:We should ask our (student) physicist genius, I named François B, what he thinks ... : roll:


MDR ... in my opinion it is "far behind" but it will undoubtedly take advantage of this more "serious" information (than the normality around pantone / doping) to be promoted at one level or another ...

I noticed that he was coming back on forum despite his "resignation" ... but he put himself in invisible so that we do not see him (except by me)
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Re: The operation of water doping: diagram?




by Christophe » 27/09/06, 09:16

camel1 wrote:I let you think about it : Cheesy:


An important step has been taken ... I'm happy to have created this Topic :)

Do not displease our detractors (from whatever "side" they may be) ... We cannot prevent the scientific reality of something which "works" from moving forward! Sorry for those gentlemen in collars or white coats who are fed by less efficient research and much more expensive solutions ...

Our strength: the diffusion of the info and the not mercantile and capitalistic personal appropriation of the system ... against that they can not nothing.

We expect dechécitisation reactions in the coming times ... See worse ...

All this still lacks any "practical" confirmations ... too bad ... France by defending its elites risks missing out on ... it was not Chirac who wanted to (re) make France a nation at the forefront of technology and research?

Although I am convinced that very serious research has been done on this subject ...
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by elephant » 27/09/06, 20:11

camel 1:

I read your analysis with great care (ie 2 or 3 again) it is extremely attractive.

But bug, the lab that would be necessary to demonstrate it (and therefore benefit from it -scientific clà gets along!)

we go out completely from our garage background exploits, there!
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by Other » 27/09/06, 21:42

Hello

I noticed that he was coming back on forum despite his "resignation" ... but he put himself in invisible so that we do not see him (except by me)

It is not the only one to do that, it happens to me to write shells or rather poorly expressed and one finds this elsewhere with all the errors (heureusment it corrects the misspellings)
there are many who watch learn but give nothing in return, we will not change the world.
on the internet I can identify myself as a good curate of a handyman parish at his time, the physicist apprentice nobody can verrify him seeing his age I do not think he participated in the Coutu motor wheel project.
What is interfering with us forum it's not the title of the characters but what they have to say to teach us.
because if you follow the reasoning of the physicist, you little ones do not play in the court of the elites, you are not educated enough and contented you to use what we high class will produce you, never will you come out this that we are battling with genius as we are going to do.
If I take the ERG valve it is the cherry on the cake of the scientific research of the researcher battalion, which was born in the USA and that the Europeans adopted, a lot of things of the daily life are aberrations of these battalions they will disappear almost as fast as the airships ...

Andre
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by bolt » 27/09/06, 22:53

Andre wrote:If I take the ERG valve it is the cherry on the cake of the scientific research of the researcher battalion, which was born in the USA and that the Europeans adopted, a lot of things of the daily life are aberrations of these battalions ,


According to my logic, the ERG valve must have an advantage for combustion.

What's wrong is that it gets dirty, and therefore causes maintenance : Evil:

The ERG valve is not useful at full load, and if it was not to be put, it means that it would always be necessary to remain "at full load", where the specific consumption is the most advantageous.

it would require a motor that always remains fully loaded, and as in reality, we do not need all the time of this full charge, the ideal would be to change the engine en route, against a smaller, it's for that we try to make variable displacement engines (the ideal in theory, but in practice it's not tomorrow the day before), another approach is the engine with variable compression ratio
see the discussions:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/programmes/environnement/vtppgm/tec01a.htm

the principle, on a standard engine, is to run out of efficiency at low load
this lack of performance includes the lack of theoretical performance (the compression ratio at this time could be higher) and the deterioration of the yield created by lack of heat which penalizes the combustion and creates unburnt and increase the spec cons.

in this sense and only at partial load the ERG valve reintroduces (and fills in part) this lack of heat necessary for a good combustion and at the same time, it recycles some of the unburnt, (if there are any, since the reintroduced heat is supposed to no longer make it : Mrgreen: )
and incidentally it limits the NOX:
the fresh air contains nitrogen that can make NOX, but the fact of recycling them in part, there is less fresh air swallowed, likely to produce NOX (a NOX ironing remains a NOX neither more nor less : Mrgreen: )

It is said that it is the combustion at too high T ° which produces the NOX (it is even for that one delays a part of the injection: so that the combustion is done in a larger volume (piston already descended ) but that's mainly for full charge

at low load, we always miss T °

in my opinion, it is not the ERG valve (in good condition) that makes you consume more
it is because it arrived at the same time as the mode to give the delay to the combustion to limit the NOX which, by this occasion, decreases the efficiency of the engine and thus increases the specific consumption, one accuses this valve of this increase of consumption, which is amplified too, let's not forget the race for more and more powerful engines

bolt
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by professeur31 » 28/09/06, 10:58

Do not worry; the recycling of exhaust gases is far from over and the HCCI engines that will appear use up to 70% of the volume to control diesel combustion in homogeneous mode.
But in this case and to avoid fouling, the residual gases are used in the chamber by controlling the valves in an optimum manner.
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by Woodcutter » 28/09/06, 13:54

Hi Prof!
Glad to see you're still a little bit forum ! : Wink:

If not to come back to that:
camel1 wrote:[...] 1 - heating it up (increase of the energy level of microdroplets) [...] We know that the molecule of water cracks around 900 ° C.
If we put a mass of water molecules in an overheated atmosphere at 2000 ° C, the molecules of the periphery of the cluster will dissociate into H and 0, which, in this atmosphere will not fail to recombine in H2O, but this time, in the form of an isolated molecule, dry steam ... and 2300 ° C to the key ...

In the case of the engine, this exothermic reaction will generate a "free" job, which will be as much less than one asks for fossil fuel. [...]
The recombination is exothermic, certainly, but the dissociation, it consumes energy (thermal?) I suppose?
Even if the primitive heating by the reactor and the electrification which can act like a catalyst (lowering of the energy level to reach for the reaction to start) facilitates the thing, there is inevitably a loss somewhere, it seems to me ?


Bolt wrote:[...] the ideal would be to change engine en route, against a smaller one, that's why we try to make variable displacement engines (the ideal in theory, but in practice c is not the day before), another approach is the variable compression ratio engine
see the discussions:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/programmes/environnement/vtppgm/tec01a.htm

the principle, on a standard engine, is to run out of efficiency at low load
this lack of performance includes the lack of theoretical performance (the compression ratio at this time could be higher) and the deterioration of the yield created by lack of heat which penalizes the combustion and creates unburnt and increase the spec cons.
Saab had worked on a variable displacement engine, but it currently seems that the variable compression ratio (which resembles it in a sense) is the preferred line of research, especially by the Lyon firm MCE-5. We already talked about it on a post it seems to me.

EDIT to 15h46: in fact, the purpose of SAAB was already the variable compression in these works which date from the year 2000.
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by Other » 28/09/06, 19:36

Hello
Professor31 wrote:Do not worry; the recycling of exhaust gases is far from over and the HCCI engines that will appear use up to 70% of the volume to control diesel combustion in homogeneous mode.
But in this case and to avoid fouling, the residual gases are used in the chamber by controlling the valves in an optimum manner.


I was not aware of this research that there is another group that works on the duration of the injection so that during most of the motor aspiration is medium and even more sequentially during a suction stroke.

But for the reinjection of the exhaust gases, it is not for the unbrushed it is to operate a motor explosion (cold)
and the main reason eliminate nox rejections.
Although 70% is back, we are getting closer to the closed circuit.
in panton the march circuit férme is experimentable but not in 100% panton, in bubbler with water and gasoline it works a certain time then the power drops until the stop of the engine.
Now remains to know if the return of these exhaust gases in the admission considerably increases the thermal efficiency?
or if it's just for reasons of standards imposed pollution.

For example (Off topic) but a certain similarity. The steelwork where I worked the standards imposed on them a drop of pollution pollution water in the 30% river
the simple method he made an artificial lake, and one put the water in closed circuit and let the surplus flow to the river is 30%
at least it takes cold water to compensate for evaporation from the lake, which results in dredging the silt of the lake and depositing it on a pile in the forest, and a very large part of the dust flies up in the air with the water flowing over the red bars and flies into nature. they are in the norms of the 30% except that shit goes away elsewhere, on piles for the future generation, we breathe it, we will die faster sooner retirement to pay.

The only ecological way is to abandon the engine
only the electrical solution is clean provided that it is electrically or electrically powered.
Still it wants to put the wind turbines near the houses whereas there is more favorable place in wind 200km further where there is no house, it speaks to us of cost of the line it is always the same one $ history .. the same chorus ..
Currently has the amount of mold to make propeller blades that is made here, to be sold around the world I think the wind turbines will grow like mushrooms.
it's huge the structure and robustness of a mold to make a simple propeller blade on composite! you would think to see a press of 200 tones ..
Andre
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