Water injection without pantone Vs pantone

Water injection in thermal engines and the famous "pantone engine". General informations. Press clippings and videos. Understanding and scientific explanations on the injection of water into engines: ideas for assemblies, studies, physico-chemical analyzes.
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Vroom143
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Water injection without pantone Vs pantone




by Vroom143 » 30/05/06, 04:01

Hello everyone.
First of all, I'm new to this forum, and I thank all the people who made their contribution: I found a lot of interesting information here ...

In short, after having read a good part of the site and a good number of subjects of the forum, I asked myself an essential question:
Although I do not master (and far from it!) The pantone process, I wondered if he had a real interest compared to a conventional water injection? When I talk about interest, I'm talking about quantifiable results, for example a comparison between two modified cars, one with pantone and the other with a simple water injection.

I practiced for a while the automobile preparation for the race, and in particular in GrF rally. In this context I often had to set up water injections. I am going to tell you about my experience here in this field, since it seems to me that some information is incomplete on the subject, or is scattered among the different subjects.


First of all, as it has often been said, the water injection is not new since used by planes of the last hardly (not only the Me, I assure you that the spitfire had too!)
Similarly, this system was offered as an option on the Saab 900 turbo at one time.
Likewise, it should be noted that water injection, in terms of engine preparation, is only aimed at supercharged engines, by turbos or compressor.
Overfeeding an engine poses various problems, including mainly rattling, and overheating and mechanical stress increased by the "enlargement" of the cycle.

The rattling can be reduced by lowering the temperature of the intake gases; to do this, two methods: the intercooler, and the injection of water. We can also reduce the rattling phenomenon, by increasing the octane rating of the fuel. As it is not common (and in any case prohibited!) To use aviation gasoline (~ 130 octane), we can overcome this defect by adding alcohol (ethanol or methanol) before combustion. Alcohol and water being missible we often cumulate the injection of water and alcohol in a single system (which can solve the question of antifreeze in water :D ).
By combining these processes, we can greatly increase the engine's supercharging, therefore increasing its efficiency and power, and therefore in normal use, having less need to draw on speeds (therefore lowering consumption)

The intercooler and the injection of water make it possible to act on the combustion temperatures as well, of course. However, by injecting a greater quantity of water than that necessary to eliminate the rattling (of the order of 1 liter of water for 13 liters of fuel), other phenomena are used:
the change of phase of the water requiring a lot of energy, a large part of the heat emitted by combustion is used to vaporize the water. This has three advantages: the combustion chamber temperature is considerably lowered, so the heat to be removed by the coolant is reduced (therefore less energy lost ... etc ...).
By reducing the chamber temperature, we limit the thermal stresses in the engine so we increase its service life (or we compensate by supercharging even more hehe : Evil: )
Finally we enter a liquid in the chamber, and we transform it into gas: the liquid taking up much less space than the gas (it surprises you no? Lol), we generate more pressure therefore more torque ...

Finally, it should be noted that even if this is not the primary purpose of water injection (in preparation), it considerably reduces pollution. Indeed, for example a super five GT turbo prepared at 320Cv with water injection, pollutes less than the same prepared at 195Cv without water injection (in both cases it is above a small city car of origin, we agree).


In short All that to say, that the Pantone reactor is very pretty, but I wonder a lot about its operation: the gains would they not be mainly due to the addition of water in the engine?
By injecting water into a turbo engine, increasing the boost pressure and putting a higher axle ratio (in order to use the torque gain for lower consumption and not for sporting purposes), we must be able to lower fuel consumption by a not insignificant proportion (-10% does not seem unrealistic to me), while having a more efficient vehicle anyway (+ 20% of power without any problem at consumption equal to the origin).
Does the pantone system really offer a plus? (especially given the complexity of implementation)

If anyone wants to try a simple water injection, I'm ready to help. A numerical comparison interests me a lot ... Who knows, if the pantone actually offers a plus, maybe I will work on a sporty use of the reactor !!
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by Other » 30/05/06, 06:24

Good evening Wroom 143
Welcome to water fog and engines.

water injection is mainly used on supercharged or high compression engines, and it is mainly for petrol explosion engines.
With the panton the observation that we make, we have less gain with turbo engines, than on atmospheric engines
The reactor loses performance if the exhaust temperature becomes too low. (case of turbo engines)
it is more effective at low speed under load.
All this becomes contradictory with an injection of cold water.

It is true that increasing the diameter of the tires was beneficial, for lack of finding a larger axle ratio!

For a gasoline engine you are limited to make him drink water, on a diesel of displacement 3 liters you can make him drink 4,5 liters per hour and even more almost as much as diesel, provided that either spray well and reheat ..
There is a quantity of water which increases the power of the engine and a certain quantity which decreases the consumption.

When we talk about water injection we must take into account the spraying according to the size of the droplets there is evaporation
before admission or at the end of compression or explosion. I think we should make the nuance. The pant provides a fine droplet which is difficult to obtain with a simple injection.
In a 100% explosion engine panton that runs on drain oil, what comes out of the panton is thin like cigarette smoke, for water I never checked I guess it must be even more only oil.
With a panton we take heat from the exhaust halving the temperature of the exhaust gas and return it to the engine (completely the reverse of the intake cooling) or a small drop of cooled hot water more than a big drop of friode water.
It is true that heat transfer takes place when the water changes state.
Some have tried the bubbler directly in the intake without going through the reactor, or without rod. Pitmix and others on the forum
that does not give the economy of a panton that works well.
There is a good difference between a cold reactor and a hot reactor, what is the role of heat? definitely not make steam! because when it gets too hot while steaming
the yield drops ...
You know I do not yet master the water doping pant, however that makes several experiments and test that I make and I cannot make it work continuously, I obtain results on long courses at speed constant, but on urban routes it is irregular.

Andre
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by lau » 30/05/06, 07:25

Hello vroom143!

as I see that you are wedged in the field I take this opportunity to ask you a question:
I have already tried the rodless reactor and my consumption water went from 1,4L / 100km to 1,5L / 30km ... you see a bit!
result big power, overconsumption of diesel (I lost my economy) and big consumption of water.
My question is: 5L. water / 100km can it screw up my engine?
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by MichelM » 30/05/06, 07:57

Hello and welcome Vroom 143.
Thank you for the info on water injection in competition.
In my case, before installing water doping with a reactor heated by exhaust gases, I had tried a cold water injection at the entrance of the turbo (Mercedes 300TD turbo). gain as recently with doping with water (water vapor) or 1 L per 100km of diesel less on average. However my assembly (DIY) was not very good: a small submerged pump which did not even give 1 bar of pressure so very bad spraying .... I still use this pump and an injector (of petrol engine) for send the water and dose it.
By cons on a gasoline engine I wonder if effectively the reactor is really useful (in water doping only) .... I would like to try with a motorcycle but I am still looking for reliable equipment (the pump in particular) at a reasonable price. Can you give us good addresses for these water injection equipment?
Thank you
Michel
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by Vroom143 » 30/05/06, 13:05

Thank you André for these answers, I will try to understand all of this a little more ... I will simmer with these new elements ...

@lau:

Oula, 1.5l / 100km in water is a bit much !! in small quantities, the injection of water does not do the slightest harm, but rather does good to the engine. By cons, 1,5 liters per 100km ca must begin to dislike! your consumption of diesel has increased because at this stage, you need more diesel to vaporize the water! And when you talk about big power, I imagine that you should only win in the rounds, right?
As for damaging the engine, André answered just before! diesel does not fear water so much ... provided that it does not remain in the rooms after the vehicle's bow (the segments are VERY easy to rust in general, unless you have segments chrome ...)


@Michelm

I imagine that you should not have gained much by injecting water at the turbo inlet! Half the interest of the water injection is lost, ie the cooling of the gases. But the idea is good: the water passing through the turbos is perfectly sprayed! On the other hand, the turbos shouldn't have liked that! at 150000 rpm, the drops of water are like sandpaper for the aluminum fins!
For your bike, it works for sure! I have tried and there are serious gains. not as good as with a turbo but good ... on the other hand you should not inject too much water into the atmosphere! (unless you want to put a compressor but I doubt it : Mrgreen: damage it works super strong on a motorcycle!)
for the pump, low flow and correct pressure for a low price will see at Conrad ( http://www.conrad.fr ), in the category: modelism> Modeling accessories> Fuel accessories> Pumps: the pump is called 12V gear pump (the second article of the page normally)

What do you use as a car injector? above all, you don't need a twingo type single point injection injector! the flow is too strong and in addition it pulverizes that dale! if you can find, I recommend a purely mechanical low-flow injector like K-Jetronic (cold start injector from Golf I Gti for example which has a lower flow than a cylinder injector).
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by MichelM » 30/05/06, 13:36

Thank you for the pump I looked but I was hesitating between the different models. For the injector I used an old Mercedes injector (D Jetronic injection) of a 8L V3,5 (therefore approximately 437cc unit displacement). And a small electronic slot generator that allows me to dose.
I also saw water injection kits http://www.aquamist.co.uk/cp/cp.html with electromagnetic pumps but it is obviously much more expensive.
What gain have you noticed with a water injection atmo engine?
I will study this for the motorbike (Voxan 1000) which also has cooling problems (radiator smaller than other motorcycles with the same characteristics) if I could kill two birds with one stone (lower the temperature and gain in consumption or potential, but that's not the goal there is already enough!)
Michel
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by Vroom143 » 30/05/06, 13:52

Wha! your injector is a little big but it should be able to work if you manage it well with your slot generator ...
As for the aquamist system, they are of course very good, but they are overpriced !!! And I'm not really sure that we can mount this on an Athmo and am more is 1l of displacement! in short it may cost you dearly for something not suitable!
As for the gain on your bike, I do not have enough to quantify! my test was done on an 1100xx engine mounted on compressor, and which pulled about 300Cv! I do not know the Voxan 1000 well, but it seems to me that it is not a very advanced engine at the start, so you cannot hope to win 15Cv !!
I do not know how you will manage your water injection, but it absolutely must be scalable with the diet (ca I think you had planned to do it), and especially that you do not inject water below 2000 rpm ... the low revs and the slowdowns of the motorcycle engines are generally very "fragile" and we quickly find ourselves with an unstable idle or a strong response time on the low revs.
All kidding aside, if you but an injection of water, you would gain increased compression ... the performance of the whole would be much better ...
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by MichelM » 30/05/06, 16:10

There is not too much problem with this injector (there are 8 of course to power the original engine so only 1 is feasible for diesel which is about 1L / 100 km) otherwise I also had thought of a motorcycle injector (BMW K100, 4 cyl 1000cc). To adjust the amount of water, I thought I would synchronize myself with the command of a petrol injector and vary the injection time with a simple circuit.
I had also seen assemblies in the USA for motorcycle BMW K100, K1100, K1200 with turbo kit without compressed air cooler but with a water injection instead ... But my goal is rather the economy , or even the lowering of the operating temperature than the increase in power at high speed.
Michel
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by Vroom143 » 30/05/06, 17:17

lol, I understood that your goal was not the increase in power at speed ... hence the compressor, which aims rather at low speeds ... but without going so far, with an injection of 'water, an increase in compression would be very beneficial ... with the increase in the volumetric ratio, you compensate for the pressure drop after explosion due to the addition of water, while maintaining a lower operating temperature. Without this increase in compression, I'm afraid that at low speed the injection of water will make you lose torque, which is the opposite of what you are looking for ...
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by lau » 30/05/06, 17:19

Vroom143 wrote:Oula, 1.5l / 100km in water is a bit much !! in small quantities, the injection of water does not do the slightest harm, but rather does good to the engine. By cons, 1,5 liters per 100km ca must begin to dislike! your consumption of diesel has increased because at this stage, you need more diesel to vaporize the water! And when you talk about big power, I imagine that you should only win in the rounds, right?
As for damaging the engine, André answered just before! diesel does not fear water so much ... provided that it does not remain in the rooms after the vehicle's bow (the segments are VERY easy to rust in general, unless you have segments chrome ...)


uh no it's 5L./100 water without the stem; and I was wondering if the engine could safely take in so much water knowing that it cannot drink the cup unlike a petrol engine.
The car no longer made the same engine noise and it had one of these potatoes !!
Have you ever tried an NOS kit? : Cheesy:
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