Water injection competing in 80 years

Water injection in thermal engines and the famous "pantone engine". General informations. Press clippings and videos. Understanding and scientific explanations on the injection of water into engines: ideas for assemblies, studies, physico-chemical analyzes.
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gildas
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Re: Water injection competing in the 80 years




by gildas » 15/03/18, 23:30

Christophe wrote:Going from 49,8 kN dry to 61,1 kN wet ... It is far from negligible! It is more than 20% gain in push!

By cons I still do not know where the water is injected: before (compression), during (combustion chamber), or after (turbine or fan) combustion?


A priori it will be sufficiently upstream (in any case for Transall engines)
Spraying and mixing a judicious amount of water-methanol, sufficiently upstream in the air stream, allows on the one hand to cool the air mass to bring it back to the standard properties on the other hand to make up for the lost power, without overheating.

http://faq-fra.aviatechno.net/avion/eaumethanol.php

For turbojets (double-flow?), It is post combustion instead of injecting water to have more power ... it must pollute. :|
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postcombustion
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Re: Water injection competing in the 80 years




by Flytox » 15/03/18, 23:49

Gildas wrote:
Water injection is used on a turboprop, so in principle it should work on a jet plane.



A turboprop is a reactor with a propeller attached to it. There were plenty of reactors with water / methanol injection. It is a simple and effective solution that does not kill the hot parts of the HP turbine combustion chamber for additional power.
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Re: Water injection competing in the 80 years




by gildas » 16/03/18, 13:38

There have been ... They might still be. Once I stayed near Nantes Altantique airport, it stinks ...
A kind of CaptMaloche-style egr like its oil burner wouldn't be bad (?)
heating-insulation / amelioration-burner-fuel-reduction-nox-and-co-Blue Flame-t5172.html

Adopted on jet planes it could be blue flame at takeoff, less particles, with possibly a water injection to reduce NOX more, for more power and less consumption.

Edit: And permanent cleaning of the combustion chamber, injectors and blades of the downstream turbine.
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Re: Water injection competing in the 80 years




by sicetaitsimple » 16/03/18, 14:21

Gildas wrote:Adopted on jet planes it could be blue flame at takeoff, less particles, with possibly a water injection to reduce NOX more, for more power and less consumption.



No, don't dream, it's more consumption. It is not the injection of water alone that increases the thrust, it is the fact of having more flow (air + injection of water which vaporizes instead of air alone), and this increased flow will be heated to the same temperature as in "dry" mode in the combustion chamber, resulting in an increase in fuel consumption. No miracle ....
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Re: Water injection competing in the 80 years




by gildas » 16/03/18, 19:22

The assembly of Maloche (which is a water injection by recycling) makes the diesel burn better, the yield increases, so the consumption will drop ...
An additional methanol-free water injection would only be intended so as not to increase the possible thermal NOX, mentioned by Oby : :P
Absolutely, the principle used here (EGR)to decrease CO is to inject water. There is a lot of luck in the exhaust gases. The difference is that the goal is not to re-inject excessively hot exhaust gases, otherwise the effect I mentioned above will prevail. This is why we inject REFROIDIS exhaust gases, not directly from combustion (or so for very large reactors). In some aircraft engines, to have the same effect without having to recirculate, we inject water vapor directly into the inlet, so that we lower the CO and we do not increase the NOx. In your case you decrease the CO and you increase the NOx.

One for the other, I prefer to emit CO than Nox ...

Sincerely,

heating-insulation / amelioration-burner-oil-reduction-nox-and-co-Blue Flame-t5172-460.html
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Re: Water injection competing in the 80 years




by sicetaitsimple » 16/03/18, 19:43

Gildas wrote:The assembly of Maloche (which is a water injection by recycling) makes the diesel burn better, the yield increases, so the consumption will drop ...

I don't agree, but hey. Do you think there are really a lot of unburned losses in a properly functioning engine or reactor or boiler?
As for imagining an EGR on a jet plane, why not .... The only small problem is how we recover them, the "exhaust gases"?
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Re: Water injection competing in the 80 years




by gildas » 16/03/18, 21:31

The benefits of water injection should be pinned on this forum.
I don't think that recycling flue gas on a reactor is insurmountable.
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Re: Water injection competing in the 80 years




by gildas » 16/03/18, 23:11

It is better to use water injection in the form of steam for pollution control.
Use on board aircraft [ edit ]


A "wet" on takeoff of a KC-135 with J57 engines
Water injection has been used in reciprocating and turbine aircraft engines. When used in a turbomachine, the effects are similar, except that normally, the prevention of detonation is not the main objective. Water is normally injected either at the compressor inlet or in the diffuser just before the combustion chambers. The addition of water increases the accelerated mass outside the engine, which increases the thrust, but also serves to cool the turbines. Since temperature is normally the limiting factor for the performance of turbomachines at low altitude, the cooling effect allows the engine to run at higher speed with more fuel injected and more thrust created without overheating. [3] The disadvantage of the system is that the injection of water slightly extinguishes the flame in the combustion chambers, since there is no way to cool the engine parts without coincidentally cooling the flame. This leads to unburned fuel on the exhaust and a characteristic trail of black smoke.

https://www.google.fr/search?source=hp& ... qae0eXajKk
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Re: Water injection competing in the 80 years




by sicetaitsimple » 17/03/18, 09:21

Gildas wrote:

Water is normally injected either at the compressor inlet or in the diffuser just before the combustion chambers. The addition of water increases the accelerated mass outside the engine, which increases the thrust, but also serves to cool the turbines. Since temperature is normally the limiting factor for the performance of turbomachines at low altitude, the cooling effect allows the engine to run at higher speed with more fuel injected and more thrust created without overheating.


I wrote a little higher:

No, don't dream, it's more consumption. It is not the injection of water alone that increases the thrust, it is the fact of having more flow (air + injection of water which vaporizes instead of air alone), and this increased flow will be heated to the same temperature as in "dry" mode in the combustion chamber, resulting in an increase in fuel consumption. No miracle ....

So we agree, right?
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Re: Water injection competing in the 80 years




by gildas » 17/03/18, 13:58

Hello,
There are several variants in water injection, including those that lower consumption:
Water injection-motor-pantone / article-econologic-autobio-on-doping-al-water-t9612.html
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