Pantone engine: scientific explanation translated !!

[camel1]

Hi everybody !

André:

I forgot to specify, that barring the accelerator of an injection pump on a diesel does not mean constant consumption, I had installed a potentiometer on the accelerator to do tests, I quickly realized that it is nothing but an order that we give to the pump and that the pump has its own regulator which takes into account the pressure of the intake manifold (to prevent smoking) and also a regulator according to the load of the engine.
So you absolutely need a way to measure the diesel flow
and it is doable we can do without the return by making a small loop in a 1 liter tank so a single supply,
I run 7000 km this summer like this ..
So easier to find a flow meter ..

And yes, we always come back to the same problem, measuring instant consumption (and average consumption ...)
I did research on the forum, with the keyword "flowmeter", there was a big debate on Michel (M) 's "Mercedes 300 td" thread ... before his troubles on his turbo .... the flow meter channel seems either overpriced (for us) or very random (Conrad version )

Regarding your remark on the flow rate of an injection pump, I understood that the flow rate depended on two parameters, the set point given by the angle of the pump lever, and the engine speed, knowing that for a given speed, the setpoint varied according to the engine load (lowering, flat or rising), the idea being that the amount of go sent into the combustion chambers depends on the work it has to provide.

I am in the process of thinking about other possible solutions to carry out this measurement, by making a device which calculates the "useful" flow according to these two parameters, with therefore an acquisition of the position of the acceleration lever (knob) AND an acquisition of the number of revolutions / min ...
I specify that in the cases which interest me (for the moment), the injection pumps have no other parameters entering than these two there, there is not, as on the turbo engine pumps , additional control by depression, so, at least on paper, it's relatively simple ...

The other solution that I am thinking of involves measuring the suction at the inlet of the pump, and the discharge pressure on the return hose (one tap on each hose), knowing that the flow of fuel used is equal to the difference between what comes into the pump and what comes back into the tank.
It is a question of imagining a "cunning" system which does this operation by the contradictory play of the depression in entry and the pressure in exit (while being inspired by the principle of the mechanical barometer) ...
I do not know if I am very clear, as soon as I have scribbled a crobard of this principle, I will submit it to you ...

It will then remain to convert this "residual force" into an exploitable electrical quantity ...

Lioxnumx

precisely speaking of brains technicians or technicians brains (KOM you prefer ...) well I take this opportunity to attract the attention of these people (day-to-day actors in the econology of pantone and all the other alternatives that I am in the process of putting together a project file for the end of study and that I invite all mechanics, thinkers (physics-chemistry), amateurs and technicians of the pantone in order to validate (by the results) to recognize and know the great public this system ...
I will put my file near the university early next year ...
well vi not in 10 years ... just in ten days next year

Indeed Lio, it runs!

So for what concerns us, and as I had announced in one of my last posts, we will pass the mercy to Didier at the power / pollution test bench on January 11th!
These tests will take place in a technical high school in Roanne, in collaboration with the IUT of Roanne, where we will in the process do the vibration tests on their magnificent electronic bench, we will have lots of information, our (collective) goal being to produce manipulations whose scientific quality will allow to produce a publication in scientific review with reading committee, history to nail definitively the beak of the vast herd of skeptics and people in bad faith ... (if indeed a herd is with a spout! )

And that's also why I want to have a practical way to measure consumption ...

At worst, if by then I haven't had time to develop one of the systems I describe above, I will still have the solution, already mentioned somewhere in the forum, which consists in supplying the engine with a small graduated tank, which makes it possible to obtain a precise estimate of an average consumption, based on a given speed / torque protocol, over a sufficient time to reduce measurement inaccuracies.
I was also thinking of proceeding by weighing the fuel, I am thinking about all this, I have three weeks to prepare these manipulations ...

In any event, we will need in the future a reliable and precise instantaneous flow acquisition system, on which we can rely for the development of our prototypes!

Otherwise, for Alex 56, well done, the test bench is THE royal road for the development, on the other hand, I have a little trouble entering your setup, could you give us a diagram of the whole (reactor geometry, engine stress, etc.)

I will soon put the one I am working on, for our future bench ...

Come on guys, we will end up coming out of the fog, we are on the right track!

I don't really like the end of year celebrations (which tend to give me a sheaf) but I wish us all a good and econological year 2007!

And as Han Solo said, may the Force be with us!
Michel

[zac]

hi camel

Forget the cam angle system by rpm it will give you nothing reliable, a diesel with cam angle and constant speed can increase its consumption tenfold according to its load.

On the other hand if you can have a constant load a graduated jar will be reliable, take the large enough and forget not to put the return

AND congratulations again for your job.

@+

[lio74]

Hi everybody !
...........................
Indeed Lio, it runs!

So for what concerns us, and as I had announced in one of my last posts, we will pass the mercy to Didier at the power / pollution test bench on January 11th!
These tests will take place in a technical high school in Roanne, in collaboration with the IUT of Roanne, where we will in the process do the vibration tests on their magnificent electronic bench, we will have lots of information, our (collective) goal being to produce manipulations whose scientific quality will allow to produce a publication in scientific review with reading committee, history to nail definitively the beak of the vast herd of skeptics and people in bad faith ... (if indeed a herd is with a spout! )

And that's also why I want to have a practical way to measure consumption ...

...........................................
Michel

all very well ... that's good news !!
I too have entries with the Poitiers thermal engineering IUT (they have gear) ... but I don't have my bench yet but I'm mounting all the battaclan and the first paper for funding request by the university, the ademe, the region (from ségo ... lol) ....

We have the same goal with the same ambition and as I said in a previous post (maybe not here ??? !!!) it would be interesting to work in parallel, well even if you have a lot more head start on my level of achievement, having a different angle of view allows questioning and revalidation of results. For the moment I am with a mechanic who knows the system but who has never ventured ... I convinced him !!! now more than to convince the bureaucrats !!! and it's far from winning but "young padawan is not afraid of anything" dixit Hoby One

in any case still hat for this evolution ... little by little we climb the mountain ... and this thanks to this forum among others! BIG UP for CHRIS !!!

@+

[Herpe]

Hello everyone

Gérard

The tests that we do are still DIY and our data should be taken more as an indication than for scientific truths.

Thermometers, multimeters are neither calibrated nor checked, my weighing system is an old pharmacy personal scale equipped with a lever arm which multiplies by a hundred the weight of petrol consumed; one liter is equal to approximately 100 kg, nevertheless when one has 100 ° C at the inlet of the reactor and the same thermometer indicates approximately 60 ° C at the outlet there is more a problem of understanding of the phenomenon than of thermometer.

Actually Alex like me work with low loads it comes from our test references before doping and as we adjust our modifications and estimate our ("progress") on these references it your best not to change anything until we are a ( "75% fuel savings")? To stop raving it would be good to know the minimum theoretical energy necessary to accelerate a kilogram of automobile, to maintain this speed and that used by our engines?

The values ​​in tension, intensity and temperature are very variable from a diesel engine to a petrol engine, from one assembly to another, we obtained by adjusting water and air valves the best yields with a maximum of voltage for a reactor outlet temperature of approximately 60 ° C.

Regarding the flowmeters on diesel in my opinion we must forget because the volume varies with the temperature difference caused by the pump return especially when the tank is empty (F1 cooled gasoline) on the other hand paying close attention to the energy power of certain diesel oils announces up to 15% difference from one tank to another? It is also necessary to take into account the exaggerated consumption of oil of certain engine!

For direct steam injection I have already tried without results but in a completely different context I will start again!

To everyone, to your loved ones, have a good holiday season.


Gérard

[zac]

hi Gérard

Put 70/100 of the admissible load by your mill and on a small diesel you will not be far from the truth.

Attention if you stay in these values ​​constantly you risk being surprised by the results of consumption.

If your engine with a little wear also provides enough to obstruct the air supply in emergency; pantonized diesel which goes into self-supply (crankcase oil) it releases.

@+

[Herpe]

Hello everyone

For this start of the year Alex 56 and Gérard send you their best wishes for 2007.

So that everyone gets back to work quickly after the holidays Alex 56 sends you the schematic diagram of his experimental reactor with four inputs. Only one input is used at a time, the others being blocked during the test. I hope that this diagram and the preceding explanations will answer all of your questions.

Bernard
&
Gérard

[zac]

Hello

super plan, you do not in the simple, still one or two pipes and it is a chambrin.

happy new year and thank you again for your test.

@+

PS: when for ADM you say isolated, is it electric or thermal?

[bob_isat]

impressive, but what is this experimental reactor for?

[lio74]

super plan, you do not in the simple, still one or two pipes and it is a chambrin.

yes except that there it is the exhaust gases which are staged ... they pass in a pipe then another larger ...

in short it is an inverted chamber

-> for Bernard and Gérard
It is true that the reactor rod heated from the inside and the outside is not the simplest, but it can be effective !!! good luck for the rest of you guys

@+

[Other]

Hello,

There is something that intrigues me
Steam + air enters at 103c depending on the stage and leaves at the end of the reactor at 64c
Normally the temperature should increase according to the logic of an exchanger.
It is true that sometimes in a single rod reactor with well-sized outlet chambers there is a temperature drop at the end of the reactor, or even a rod which cools.
What we find that a reactor (water doping) that works whatever the exhaust temperature, what comes out is held in the 100c
While an engine that generates a lot of heat it should go up
If we examine the evolution of the temperature on the rod by the colors at a certain place it becomes very hot, to decrease at the end of the rod (a test with balls end to end which prevents heat exchange is more revealing)
Although the size of the chamber at the end of the reactor changes the outlet temperature a lot.

Andre