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Water injection in thermal engines and the famous "pantone engine". General informations. Press clippings and videos. Understanding and scientific explanations on the injection of water into engines: ideas for assemblies, studies, physico-chemical analyzes.
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Philippe Schutt
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by Philippe Schutt » 07/09/06, 19:02

no, it is not the fuel oil which is at 800 °, I misspoke, it would be the air at the end of compression. but this afternoon I found (on the net) 600 ° and even 450 °, so I doubt it. especially since it seems to me a lot. it must be burning. :|
I continue my research, it is necessary that this point is clear, to emit plausible hypotheses.
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by Other » 07/09/06, 19:02

Hello Laurent
The reason or it capsizes is as follows:
When you inject not steam but water (say very humid steam) the water turns into steam and absorbs a lot of calories then takes the remaining heat in the cylinder => cylinder cooling. It is very good and enough to earn money.
If on the other hand you inject steam already formed there is no absorption of heat due to the change of vapor water phase. So the cooling is less good, because it is only due to the temperature difference between the cylinder and the steam temperature.


I think the same as you on the role of water in the engine, the difference between no rod or just the wet area is that coming out of the reactor must be even finer than the wet drops and to some moment ionized or ozonized (because of the odor) I work on it, the rest is only speculation and hypohesia which remains to prove. but the door is open to all commentaries, serious, as long as it does not become (holy water or esoteric explanations)

Andre
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laurent.delaon
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by laurent.delaon » 07/09/06, 20:25

Hello

the temperatures at the end of compression are exact they are higher than 600 ° C for 80bar in adiabatic search I gave the calculation formulas a long time ago on the site.
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Philippe Schutt
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by Philippe Schutt » 07/09/06, 20:53

well, this is what i found for diesel engines.

At the end of compression, the air temperature is over 450 ° for self-ignition of the fuel oil.
For a volumetric ratio of 22 / 1 it is towards 600 °.
at the end of combustion I found 1800 °

We can deduce that there is no cracking of the water before combustion, but only transformation of the droplets into vapor. If the temperature drops below the 450 °, the fuel oil is badly ignited and the yield drops. If you are under heavy load you can put more water, the higher heat of the walls will compensate for the additional heat absorbed by the water.
So far, it follows exactly André's findings and it is also in line with Laurent's experience. We have very fine droplets at the outlet of the reactor, as hot as possible but without it being steam. if we pull on the mill we can increase the water, and if we exaggerate everything collapses.
Turbo engines being less compressed should accept less water at low load. On the other hand, under heavy load it would be the opposite. Does this hold true?
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by Other » 08/09/06, 02:53

Hello
Now it would be interesting to know if these fine water droplets did not become vaoprised during the mid stroke of the compression (since it was close to being when it enters the engine due to their great fineness which would relieve the compression time and rendered only at the end of compression at 80 bars
become again in droplet recondensation (this is the way of restoring the heat energy absorbed on the exhaust, this would also explain that when the ingestion of water to the engine is well proportioned the engine brake decreases. Then with the explosion it becomes again steam it absorbs the sudden temperature shock during injection to restore it in the more constant descent of the piston (diesel)

So it remains to be seen whether at 80 bar can recondense your water vapor and at what temperature still there, the temperature is something complex in an engine, it depends where you measure it, there is all effect of cylinder head walls and small injection chamber as the volume of compressed air is relatively small compared to the surface of the combustion chamber this distorts the values. In addition a certain inertia of heat transfer (minimum but real)
at 4500 rpm the injection time and the time that the piston remains on the compression at the end of the stroke and lengthened with respect to the crank angle (fortunately it stops at the top to start in the other direction this lengthens the time at the top compared to the time in the middle of its stroke, high linear speed of the piston)

As for the turbo diesel engine mine without intercooler, the fact of chewing the cold outlet reactor less than 90c gave me a certain yield it can come from this steam doing the role of the intercooler at this low charge level
For some time I have been doing more open engine hikes, (you have to watch the radars) I notice that the engine does not consume much more than driving at 100kmh, although making precise measurements becomes more and more complex for me the counter remains sometimes hung on 5 km and it starts again, so more reliable ... I have to do my known test journey.

Andre
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by Philippe Schutt » 08/09/06, 11:09

for 80 bars, the evaporation temperature is 295 °.
(http://www.thermexcel.com/french/tables/vap_eau1.htm)
So yes, evaporation takes place before and relieves the compression force, and there can be some recondensation on the walls, but it must be minimal, we are still 200 ° warmer, and the surface t ° walls should be high enough, probably too high for it to condense significantly.
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laurent.delaon
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by laurent.delaon » 08/09/06, 13:36

Hello,


nononononon!
at 80 bar the evap temperature is not 295 ° c !!!

a80 bar all water is in vapor phase ca c clear. (for an engine cylinder)

now actually the gain phase on the compression is ended maybe this is the only one.
now if there is something else simpler first:
humidity spreads the explosion and improves combustion new gain
and this phase there I am ready to swear that it exists on my return of experience.
The next phase is a vapocrackage but c difficult to know. and to prove.

By the way the steam which from the reactor cannot be in the warmest possible state. I repeat that I do not have a reactor and that it works only with water (in my case).
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by Philippe Schutt » 08/09/06, 16:20

in the cylinder we are good + that 295 ° at the end of compression, we saw that we were rather towards 600 °, that's why we are completely in vapor phase.

1ere question: exactly how much have we earned? Is this sufficient to explain the consumption gains observed?
I'm going to sweat a little there, hard guy I'm not an engineer like Christophe : Cry:
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laurent.delaon
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by laurent.delaon » 08/09/06, 21:20

Good evening,

me I earn on an average of full 6 compared
has an average of 8 full of evaluation of the consumption without doping
therefore in relation to the 13,7% means at each refill.
But the trend is very marked up on the last refills also if I take the best, I get 27%. I await confirmation in approximately full 4.
However, the gain cannot be fully explained by an improvement in thermal efficiency (?). Only a vapocrackage makes it possible to obtain a return higher than the basic mechanical return (because one changes fuel). So one could know if there is steam cracker if the mechanical return of the engine became higher than the initial return. But in my case I am just at the limit I cannot say it; on the other hand if I had 40% of improvement the I would be more affirmative. This is unfortunately not the case.
Finally 20% it would already be really nice ...
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Philippe Schutt
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by Philippe Schutt » 08/09/06, 23:00

wow! by injecting how much water?

according to my calculations, the gains on compression would make in 0,8 kwh / liter of water. subject to control by Christophe that I must call for help : Cheesy:
but if my calculations are correct, it would not be bad, since I limited myself to what happens even before the start of injection.
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