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Water injection in thermal engines and the famous "pantone engine". General informations. Press clippings and videos. Understanding and scientific explanations on the injection of water into engines: ideas for assemblies, studies, physico-chemical analyzes.
laurent.delaon
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does the water burn?




by laurent.delaon » 05/09/06, 20:44

Hello,

answer to everyone for his good question:
not of course it is only barely hot water vapor
if it burned, we would have known it for a long time.
(outside the Pantone reactor ...)

Lawrence.
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by PITMIX » 06/09/06, 12:44

Hello
And in addition to make a reaction between water and iron you have to heat it red. And frankly it would surprise me that on a tractor the reactor rod becomes red.
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by Philippe Schutt » 06/09/06, 22:47

but at the end of compression is the temperature not sufficient for the molecules to be cracked?
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Re: does the water burn?




by Cuicui » 06/09/06, 23:18

laurent.delaon wrote:Hello,

answer to everyone for his good question:
not of course it is only barely hot water vapor
if it burned, we would have known it for a long time.
(outside the Pantone reactor ...)
Lawrence.

Hello,
I am clarifying my question better. In the case of water doping, barely hot water vapor comes out of the bubbler. This vapor passes into the reactor. When leaving the reactor, is there still only water vapor? Doesn't something else also form in the reactor? For example the result of a hypothetical phenomenon related to a partial cracking of water, but at low temperature? We could perhaps insert a jar between the outlet of the reactor and the engine, and take, for analysis, a little of the gas collected when the reactor "hangs", to check whether a new one would have formed. component stable enough to last the analysis time.
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by bolt » 07/09/06, 00:04

Philippe Schutt wrote:but at the end of compression is the temperature not sufficient for the molecules to be cracked?


At the end of compression and after ignition anyway, if perhaps well, but since cracking takes a lot of energy, in fact it must limit (at this time there: precise moment when we "would have the beginning of cracking") the sudden rise in T ° (characteristic of diesel: knocking)

So si we have good steam (which meets the assumption that I propose)

1) good steam compresses with the rest, during compression

2) ignition at the end of compression makes it possible to rise very strongly in T ° (not yet too much not to create knocking, but enough to crack the "good" water vapor, (if it is not cracked in advance, or if it is something else: gaz geet) : Mrgreen:

3) the "good" cracking vapor therefore seeks to reduce the T ° at the same time as the combustion of the fuel is prolonged and tends to increase it further.

4) so ​​there is a fraction of a second, where combustion virtually takes its time
And it is mainly during this phase that the pantone motor should decrease its operating noise

5) then, the "good" cracked vapor enters the combustion game (perfectly separates the molecules of the fuel from which better combustion of this one)
and therefore, yield gain

So, the hardest part is to arrange the steam, the reactor and the operating temperatures of the assembly to have the start of cracking, but precisely not too much cracking so as not to defuse this cracking (which precisely needs a minimum T °)

So have an injection (for a diesel) which does not take too long, and creates a combustion that is too cold

Ultimately, if cracking regulates and slows combustion, it is better to give more advance to the injection, because when there is steam in compression, too much advance will be automatically regulated by the start of cracking

a T ° probe should be placed inside the combustion chamber to check the correct T °
and maybe understand why it works or it doesn't work


bolt
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by Other » 07/09/06, 06:07

Hello,

What explanation to give when sending a certain amount of water fairly precise we realize a saving
when we send almost twice this dose we feel the engine become more torquey
and when we greatly exceed this dose we lose everything, the engine becomes slightly worse than without pants.
What I say here is without making precise measurements on the power on a bench, it's just what the driver who knows his car well feels (except for economy measures)
Several who have long used operational pants have realized this.
As for cracking water, this is a hypothesis, which will be difficult for us to demonstrate with our little means.
I think the sois say fake diesel car, starts to work in real diesel with a panton, the combustion is at constant pressure more progressive and more spread out in the descent of the piston,
Auto diesel at low revs is close to the diesel cycle but at full injection we must send in a very short time all of the diesel and this makes a brutal mixed cycle, which approaches the internal combustion engine, and it is at these diets that one has the best results with water doping.
Another observation when you walk with lower quality fuel (100% potato oil) it takes more water than for diesel walking,


Andre
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by Philippe Schutt » 07/09/06, 09:23

Do we need to demonstrate it?
thermolysis of water begins around 700 °, the temperature of diesel BEFORE injection is around 800 ° (Wikipedia)
I conclude that there is already a cracking of the water before the explosion, which would limit the temperature and pressure. at the time of injection, further cracking of the water molecules which are not in the injection cone which limits the pressure peak (less noise), then a rapid series of crackings of the water and recombinations with poorly burned hydrocarbon molecules, which would maintain a higher pressure and reduce pollution.

Where my reasoning collapses is when you say that if the water vapor is too hot the efficiency of the pantone collapses ... : Cry:
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by Other » 07/09/06, 14:51

Hello
This observation was made on a small combustion engine which works 100% panton with a fuel carburetor and a water bubbler for the doped, after more than 30 minutes of running under constant load on a small generator all the adjustments are stable, regular RPM, We take a propane welding torch and we heat (slightly) the copper outlet pipe of the reactor, not exaggeratedly, the engine loses speed is power, if we continue to heat more the engine fucks speed drastically.
we repeat the same experience with a bubbling bubbler despite the possibility of an external steam outlet (an open T) to prevent overpressure at the inlet of the reactor, it is the same observation.
On the diesel doping with water on my second assembly, I had sent the spraying of water to walk too long on the exhaust, the result is too hot steam entering the reactor bad result on the operation of the reactor, don't ask me why I can't explain it. The reactor needs steam (cold at the inlet) and at the outlet if it gets too hot it is no more efficient ...

Andre
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laurent.delaon
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by laurent.delaon » 07/09/06, 17:50

Hello,
This vapor passes into the reactor. At the outlet of the reactor, is there still only water vapor?
Personally I do not have a reactor I have results without, my answer: at the exit of the reactor yes, that of the fleet ...


Doesn't something else also form in the reactor?
not for me
For example the result of a hypothetical phenomenon related to partial cracking of water, but at low temperature?
not.
We could perhaps insert a jar between the outlet of the reactor and the engine, and take, for analysis, a little of the gas collected when the reactor "hangs", to check whether a new one would have formed. component stable enough to last the analysis time.
yes it is an experience which would allow to discriminate.

However having no reactor and having positive results
We can argue that it should not be used for much. And in addition those who want to put one often have great difficulty in making it work (but some get there or may not work at all and are they in the same case as me: without reactor ...)

Laurent
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laurent.delaon
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by laurent.delaon » 07/09/06, 17:59

Philippe Schutt wrote:Do we need to demonstrate it?
thermolysis of water begins around 700 °, the temperature of diesel BEFORE injection is around 800 ° (Wikipedia)


Where my reasoning collapses is when you say that if the water vapor is too hot the efficiency of the pantone collapses ... : Cry:



Diesel is not at 800 ° C before injection. It is close to room temperature.
This temperature rises after injection because the pressure is high in the cylinder which is not the same.

The reason or it capsizes is as follows:
When you inject not steam but water (say very humid steam) the water turns into steam and absorbs a lot of calories then takes the remaining heat in the cylinder => cylinder cooling. It is very good and enough to earn money.
If on the other hand you inject steam already formed there is no absorption of heat due to the change of vapor water phase. So the cooling is less good, because it is only due to the temperature difference between the cylinder and the steam temperature.

Subsequently this water vapor heats up a lot and reacts with the diesel oil either at the start by delaying the inflammation or also by reacting with hydrocarbon molecules (vapor cracking which gives hydrogen much more than decomposed water alone )


Laurent
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