"Water in Gasoil" documentary on water injection, car manufacturers know!

Water injection in thermal engines and the famous "pantone engine". General informations. Press clippings and videos. Understanding and scientific explanations on the injection of water into engines: ideas for assemblies, studies, physico-chemical analyzes.
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Christophe
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"Water in Gasoil" documentary on water injection, car manufacturers know!




by Christophe » 05/06/13, 07:26

I am in contact with Patrick Lefrere, director of a documentary, apparently complete and well done, on water doping.

He tried to make a review as neutral as possible and it seems not bad at all! Here is the trailer:



In fact, he lacks some funds to finish the documentary. So he asked me to relay this message (but I hope he can come and explain by himself):

A countdown to 55 days was launched on 31mai 2013 to try to get 3500 euros needed to be able to finish a movie.

This film began 3 years ago with a passion for the legend of the water engine.

I did some research, I met wacky inventors, self-taught handymen and sharp engineers.
It's a hundred hours of images and interviews that must now be sorted, classified and given meaning.


It is this quest for truth around the "Pantone" or "Water doping" system that I would like to be able to tell you about.


So how can you help me?


There are 3 ways:


1 / by clicking on this link http://fr.ulule.com/roulez-a-leau/ you will find all the information about the film.
You can make your contribution and leave your comments.
It is a crowdfunding site with lots of creative projects of all kinds. By contributing to my film, you make sure you have at least your name in the credits and have all my gratitude. There are lots of other little presents.


2 / Relay this email. Transfer it to your contacts, mates, families, office colleagues, rich distant cousins, uncle mechanic handyman and anyone who might be interested in a movie around the legend of the water engine. Thank you for taking 2 minutes to do that, you are my best relay.


3 / Send me an email directly >>> lefrere (point) pat (arobase) gmail (point) com <<<


Very soon, a facebook page will be accessible where you can follow and follow the news of the film.


Thank you all.


Pat


Edit: here is the full story

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dirk pitt
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by dirk pitt » 05/06/13, 09:41

the report looks promising, I ordered the DVD.
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by zelectron » 06/06/13, 07:43

The German V2 were already doped with water!

Renault starts filing US-style patents that are only worth the money.
Technologically, in order for an invention to be patentable, novelty must be demonstrated and no previous publication; as for the knowledge of those skilled in the art of a given industrial sector, they of course preempt any patent. The RNUR is walking on it cheerfully!
The Byzantine discussions of the Pantone genre should have made think these junk inventors.
:!:
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by Christophe » 06/06/13, 09:06

zelectron wrote:The German V2 were already doped with water!


What V2? If you think about rockets (V2 A4) it was a rocket engine ... oxygen ethanol (hey it was a biofuel!) so not much to do with a heat engine. I have never heard of a water injection and if there was one, it is for another reason and effect that in a piston engine ...

By cons Messerschmitt had a water injection : https://www.econologie.com/injection-eau ... erschmitt/

And if you come into the field that "it already existed before" well here is a great history on the history of water injection:
https://www.econologie.com/telechargemen ... hermiques/

And an old patent of Vernet Clerget: https://www.econologie.com/telechargemen ... ur-diesel/

zelectron wrote:Technologically, in order for an invention to be patentable, novelty must be demonstrated and no previous publication; :!:


False and fake, I know the world of patents well:

a) Everything is patentable, there are plenty of perpetual engines in the drawers of the patent office (if some want to lose money in administrative costs it's their problem ...) as long as there is an "innovative" technological character... for something to be unpatentable it really has to be a technological aberration or too simplistic (style try to patent the wheel ... monsanto does it well with the living !! but it's not the debate here!)

(b) Anteriority does not preclude patentability unless it is flagrant or previous depositories make observations that may prevent patentability!

And it's not the patent office that does this work !!!

c) Anteriority can prevent OPERATION if previous custodians manage to assert their rights! Often it's David against Goliath and here it's not David who wins ...
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by Janic » 06/06/13, 09:32

and most importantly, you have to have a well-stocked portfolio to patent globally (and even for those who are under contract) which does not prevent the illegal exploitation of a patented product because again to make lawsuits it takes a wallet even more trimmed and a lot, a lot of patience.
The only really exploitable patents, at a personal level, concern minor subjects that are not of interest to industrialists, with some surprises such as the Dyson vacuum cleaner.
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by Christophe » 06/06/13, 09:35

Yes Janic

In France it's cheap (a few hundred euros, I believe in 400 2003 where I had put mine).

Yes often small inventors ruin the little savings they have in seeking to patent world or Europe (there are several tens of thousands of euros, 20 000 memory ...)

All this money is not going into industrial development.

In short the world of patents, set up 200 years ago and which has not changed since, looks more and more like a humbug and must, as anything else, be reformed in depth to adapt to the new society (internet !!)!
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by Janic » 06/06/13, 11:28

To set orders of magnitude, we can propose the following figures:

The overall cost of a patent from the filing of the application with the Patent Office (thus, without including the cost of writing), until the end of its theoretical life (20 years most often, except as noted below), including:

- the filing fee
- the costs of a "normal" procedure (without excessive complications such as appeals or oppositions)
- any translations for EP and PCT patents,
- annuities,

can be estimated as:

- 7 to 8000 € for a French patent filed at INPI,
- 15 000 € for a US patent,
- 15 to 20 000 € for a Japanese patent,
- 30 000 € for a European patent designating 10 main countries, and maintained in force for the first ten years,

- 100 000 € for a European patent designating also 10 pays, with payment of annuities until the end of twenty years.

- 150 000 € for a patent filed in the main countries of the planet, and maintained for at least ten years.

These figures are only estimates, but they must be kept in mind ....

The distribution of costs varies by country. In the USA, 60% of the fees for the procedure and 40% for the annuities must be counted. In Europe, 60 80% for annuities, the rest being divided between the procedure and the translations.

As the amount of annuities is progressive, (the last five to seven are still a very high amount, in all countries) a waiver of the patent after 14 or 15 years can be advantageous unless it continues to bring in a lot of money, either through its direct exploitation or through the levying of license fees, or to continue to interfere with a competitor.

For an international PCT patent application, the cost can be estimated between 4 000 € and 4 500 € (including filing fees and consultancy fees). Deposits, when going into national phases with validation in the main industrialized countries (Europe, United States, Japan) cost between 30 000 € and 45 000 € (including filing fees and consultancy fees).

http://www.invention-europe.com/CMpro-v-p-134.htm
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Water injection engine, nebulous history




by Serge25 » 06/06/13, 12:32

Hello,
If it is interesting to publish a history of the question, this can not justify everything that is said about it. Pantone is a (rich) puppet, theoretical explanations are often far-fetched and measurements made on dark engines. I agree with the remarks left by Christophe Martz, I will add others:
9 page and 12 page, the pressures are in kg / cm3 instead of kg / cm2. Even so, it's very different!
Page 12, we talk about decomposing the water into oxygen by passing on a metal heated to red (about 800 ° C), but page 14 this temperature goes down to 250 / 300 ° C. Will understand.
Page 17 "Makhunin uses oxygen and hydrogen from the decomposition of water to burn hydrocarbon fluids". There it is great, hydrogen transformed into oxidizer! In fact O2 and H2 having no other desire than to unite again (if indeed we have been able to dissociate them) will not attack the fluids in question. And I believed that the water was used (as such) to moderate the explosion to improve the yield (which I can believe).
Page 14, we talk about reduction based on the work of Sabatier and Senderens. What do we do with the oxygen obtained at the same time as hydrogen? Who knows how to hydrogenate in the presence of oxygen? Have we forgotten that the hydrogenation is under pressure, that the catalyst must be prepared with great care (Raney Nickel for example) and finely divided? Nothing) to do with the nickel contained in the alloy called stainless steel. And what is the use of hydrogenation of alkenes, while the overall energy balance is the same (dissociation water, + 286kJ / mol, then hydrogenation ethylene for example -130kJ / mol, then ethane combustion -1560kJ / mol, compared to combustion ethylene -1410 kJ / mol)?
For the record (source Peugeot research center) the best performance of a gasoline engine is now 34% while in Diesel we arrive at 39%.
So let's stay at a relaxation of the operation of the engine (Diesel) by water injection H2O, as we know since ... 1865!
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Water injection and Pantone engine




by urquiola » 06/06/13, 16:26

The idea of ​​water injection was not born yesterday, we used this system on the aviation engines in the Second World War, because it allows to reduce the maximum temperature reached in the combustion chamber of the engine for short periods of time when a much higher maximum power is required than that used in cruising speed, such as take-off, rapid climb, or to escape from a combat zone, in addition to Decreasing the combustion temperature reduces nitrogen oxide emissions, which are very aggressive, and gives a little help to the efficiency, therefore to the fuel economy of the internal combustion engines. The idea is very beautiful, it would be necessary to reach and monitor the experiments on this subject. Hi +
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Re: Water injection engine, nebulous history




by Other » 06/06/13, 16:44

Hi
Serge25 wrote:Hello,

And I thought water was used (as such) to moderate the explosion to improve performance (which I can believe).


This is also what I believe, the water doping simply improves the cycle of the engine (if there was a dissociation and production of hydrogen, the more oxygen you add, the more the yield improves, too much water or not enough no improvement, there is a certain dosage.
the improvement is more spectacular on the old diesel indirect injection engine. (even with degraded injectors, which would probably be an explanation of the good resutats with water injection made by Clerget, although in water doping the water vapor is returned by the admission, which passes into the cylce compression.)

@ zelectron
the injection of water into the aircraft engines has nothing to do with this principle, The Germans used this principle, because their fuel was too low in octane, compared to that of the English provided by the US, the injection of was intended to increase power use the compressor at low altitude for a short time (the BF109 Daimler had a potential of 180 hours)
Some military jet aircraft have also used this water injection principle to increase take-off.
In doping with water it is not to increase the power but to increase the torque efficiency at low engine speed. when at the output of the reactor there comes out in droplets no gain on the yield, see even if we increase the amount of water a yield loss A measurement of the reactor outlet temperature tells us if it is liquid.

Andre
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