Instant steam generator

Water injection in thermal engines and the famous "pantone engine". General informations. Press clippings and videos. Understanding and scientific explanations on the injection of water into engines: ideas for assemblies, studies, physico-chemical analyzes.
laurent.delaon
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Registration: 13/08/05, 17:49

a point of view...




by laurent.delaon » 17/11/05, 18:25

Hello Andre,

I think that we really have to measure the steam temperature.
I also think with the feedback experience (very short for me) that the pantone reactor is a very bad heat exchanger ...
So I think the temperature produced (except tractors) is very low ... And in the case of your measure I would put my hand cut that you have a significant bias on your measure: you see some of the heat of the reactor!
Could you invalidate or confirm this statement by a measure
further?

That would allow us to advance I think ... as soon as I have a point on my conso soon I could have been a better vision of the problem ... Me my temperature is of the order of 88-90 ° C
I would confirm because I have a pb on my first probe.

Laurent
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Other
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by Other » 18/11/05, 04:29

Hello laurent
I think you're wrong when you say the panton reactor is a bad heat exchanger.
For having done a lot of things in heat pumps and differrent heat exchangers, I can tell you that I have not yet seen any heat exchanger, capable of such a short distance, the length of the reactor is 30cm, that all the exhaust So, a volume of 200kg of gas al, hour circulating in the exhaust pipe lose as much heat.
These gases measured at the reactor inlet make 600c at 130kmh
to pass the 30cm of the reactor makes less than 300c so it has yielded half of their temperature, and these figures s, improves if the gases go up to 700c, the more the motor forces the greater the differrential is large.
it is relatively simple to weld 2 thermocouples on each side
of the reactor, and makes the observation.
For your steam temperature measurement question, measure and tap on the copper pipe (thermocouple solder to the silver on the pipe midway between the reactor and the manifold, all isolated for accuracy, normally with this way of measuring (on the pipe) the internal temperature should be higher
to that indicated.

On the Mercedes 300TD the temperature is definitely lower
I'm working on 110c and sometimes 90c.
To verrify it just passes air into the reactor and opens the machine a bit in an isolated country road.
Without doing much, just look at the color of the copper pipe after a hike down a few miles.
A small note it gets hotter with a little water than just air, if you increase the water slightly it starts to drop to stabilize it.
Today I just tested the Van Lumina Chevrolet V6 engine
I maintained the steam outlet temperature between 120c and 150c in the ribs that climbed to maximum 170c, driving
went 100, 110 kmh back it is done on snowy road, wet sticky, so less fast is 90kmh.
I filled in the cap at the start and at the finish
Either 267km consomation 22,8 ordinary liters 87octane
for an engine of this size it is not wonderful but it is acceptable.
Andre
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laurent.delaon
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Registration: 13/08/05, 17:49

how to do it by things ...




by laurent.delaon » 24/11/05, 18:36

Hello andre,

I would like to know what is the share of heat that comes from your reactor on your diesel ... we are the two people to measure the temperatures but to compare them we would have to determine the heating bias of your reactor ...
Could you take a measurement without injecting water to evaluate the heating temperature of the pipes (of course there will always be an error related to cooling with water but it should be minimal?)

Thus we will know if the reactor heats or overheats and how much
for my par I arrive at a steam of 90-91 ° C.
I think you need 120-130.
I have trouble getting overheated with my system.
But I am far from the air filter (60cm).
Maybe it is not necessary to overheat but I have no phenomenon of engine attachment (taking turns).

Thanks for your understanding.


Laurent
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by Other » 24/11/05, 21:13

Bonjour,
for the diesel is finished for this winter it will go in April 2006
it rests in the snow, but on the diesel hooking sensation I did not feel it just an improvement on consumption,
in my first assembly I could not get any steam at 100c that stood at the 80c.
The next arrangement has to change the flow of the exhaust gases around the reactor and preheat the product coming out of the carburettor in a dry bubbler.
the temperaure which is measured it is exit of vapor and the other it is exit exhaust, entry exhaust that becomes difficult because I am stuck on the turbo I do not want to drill a hole dan sla font
With this change especially throttling exhaust around the reactor I have a net gain on the heat, but for the consomation side it is not improved better than the assembly before I am a little confused, it is for this reason that I do not want to comment without knowing why it was so little change,
The tests that I do as I walk with a carburettor and that it is far from being perfect like a bubbler, when I cut the water it passes only the air and if rolls quickly enough to the carpet it goes up to the out of the reactor around 7,2 millivolts if you add very little water at this time it goes up even higher 7,6 7,8 as soon as you increase the water it starts to decrease to be around 4,5 if you drive to 100kmh if you slow down it drops fast enough.
Also I think that when I increase the water the stem partially wets and the reactor does not work anymore.

When I talk about hooking up the reactor it's on my petrol chevrolet a lot of heat and big depression in this reactor, the numbers are definitely higher, the reason is that on the petrol engine if we make him consume too much water he misbehaving (I guess he misses) so he eats less water than the diesel he can be put too much
it eats that apart from a little white fummée back that does not change much about the power of the engine.

andré
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PITMIX
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by PITMIX » 26/11/05, 14:42

Hello everybody
Here is a cold steam generator that I believe will be of interest to more than one. What do you think ?
Image

It's beautiful progress!
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by Former Oceano » 26/11/05, 19:23

This is an interesting alternative to the carburetor and an injector.

400cc / h, given the water consumption of some pantone, it may take 2.

We must also see the life of such a device in automotive operating conditions (large temperature differences, vibrations, ...).

In short, to test. Where did you find that?
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by Other » 26/11/05, 23:04

Hello,
It seems to me that I ramble, we talked a lot about the fogger
my first tests date back to 2 years with a home ultrasonic humidifier.
This spring I bought one of the Company LAGUNA (Fogger) it is used to make the external water pool mist, I did not test on the vehicle. it works in 24volts DC a supplie power is sold with, as I have a relatively easy inverter
The temperature of the water must be between 10c and 35c the minimum level 45mm
Its faults it sprays 200mll on time when I tested it in a bucket of water, it makes fog if there is good level over the pellet too much water, it is little fog, not enough From the water a column of water comes out of the capsule, it stops automatically if the level is too low.
It is necessary to put distilled or demineralized water the ceramic has a rather limited life according to the hardness of the water.
The one I used on one engine (see pictures on the other forum) is ajudtable with a power control it vaporizes
Nearly 500cc, at the time of sale, a lot of people get rid of these humidifiers at the flea market, because in use it leaves a white dust on the furniture and because it needs distilled water. This model had a windshield, a level controlled reevoir and an outlet for the mist, it is a little big under a hood and it all plastic ... But it only cost me 10 $
used to do tests ... it's excellent.
Small note with this system I found that the stem became white in the warm part, while with gasoline it is rather black blue gun (weapon)
If you just have the piezo element, you have to make the accessories that go with it. Controlled level vat and ventillation the mist tends to stick to the surface.
Be careful not to touch the top of the colone of water it pecks the fingers l ultra son, it blew the paint on a small room placed in the jet of water.

Andre
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PITMIX
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by PITMIX » 27/11/05, 22:30

I found this on the Selectronic catalog the problem is the food. In addition, as André says, there is only the naked piece. This is a bit of the problem of the suppliers of electronic equipment.
It provides components, after that it's up to everyone to do that sauce. I had forgotten, André, that you had tested a device of this kind. The implementation of this bidulle in a car does not seem simple. The bubbler seems easier to do. So according to you the results obtained with the nebulizer are not satisfactory. It is bizard because it does not create water vapor but a fog is yet what we seek to reproduce. The water particles may be too thin.
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by Other » 28/11/05, 01:17

Hello
Brumisser
Steam too fine !! it will never be fine enough for my taste
That of the bubbler is even thinner it becomes invisible hot
This is not the electric side is rather the water level, and the endurance of the pellet although it is easy to change and not expensive when you find it, he sells you the bebelle but the pieces?
The Laguna is costing 35 $. it is all stainless steel with the supplied power supply.
The only test I did was on the small 125cc engine, I compared it to the bubbler, but water-doped on the small engine I did not have enough differrence to make reliable measurements.
Doping with water on the small engine it was not a success, just for the scent coming out of the exhaust.
I wanted to test it on the car but with the winter ...
I will continue with the carburettor water-alcohol

Andre
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laurent.delaon
I understand econologic
I understand econologic
posts: 168
Registration: 13/08/05, 17:49

all about steam




by laurent.delaon » 05/01/06, 19:06

Here is an excerpt from Francis MEUNIER's book
Aide Memoire at DUNOD
"Thermodynamics of the engineer"
This extract explains what steam is.
<< ...
A pure body can exist under the three states (also called phases) solid, liquid or vapor depending on the conditions of temperature and pressure. The transition from one state to another is called a phase change. Figure 3.1 shows, for a real body, the limits of the phase changes.
Image

Let us now consider a pure body in the solid state and heat it at constant pressure; its temperature will increase gradually with an increase in enthalpy. The evolution of the enthalpy change at constant pressure as a function of temperature is presented in FIG. 3.2.
Image

This increase of enthalpy corresponds to an increase of the sensible heat insofar as, according to [2.57], with constant pressure, one has:
DBH = CPdt
In this step, any new heat input causes a rise in temperature. On the other hand, when the melting temperature is reached, the phase change from the solid state to the liquid state takes place. This change of phase is progressive So that all the solid goes to the liquid state, it is necessary that the body receives a sufficient amount of energy, which will take a certain time. During this period when the body accumulates enough energy to change phase, the body temperature will remain constant until all the material has gone into the liquid state. During this phase change, a new heat input does not lead to a rise in temperature but the melting of an additional quantity of material; there is an increase in enthalpy, which corresponds to latent heat which corresponds to matter which has changed phase. If one continues to heat the pure body which is in the liquid phase, the temperature will increase again and the increase of enthalpy will correspond to sensible heat. When the vaporization temperature is reached, the liquid becomes vapor as heat is supplied. As for the solid / liquid phase change, this phase change is progressive. In order for all the liquid to change to the vapor state, it is necessary for the body to receive a sufficient amount of energy, which will take a certain amount of time. During this entire period when the body accumulates enough energy to change phase, the temperature of the mixture of coexistence of. two liquid and vapor phases will remain constant while the vapor content will increase. During this phase change, a new heat input does not cause a rise in temperature but the vaporization of an additional quantity of material; there is an increase in enthalpy, which corresponds to latent heat which corresponds to matter which has changed phase. If we continue to heat the pure body which is in the vapor phase, the temperature will increase again and the increase of enthalpy will correspond to sensible heat.
In figure 3.1, we see that there is a point, called a triple point, where the vaporization curve and the melting curve meet. During
from a heating of the solid, at a constant pressure less than the pressure of this triple point, there will be a single change of phase from the solid state to the gaseous state (we then bet sublimation).
Towards high pressures, the vaporization curve stops at a point C, called the critical point (Figure 3.1). If the pressure is greater than that of the critical point, there is only one phase, called supercritical fluid. At high pressure, there will therefore also be a single phase change but this time between the solid state and a critical fluid. The existence of the critical point has the consequence that the separation into two phases (liquid and gaseous) is possible only for temperatures below the critical temperature.
... >>

and There you go!
in clear more we heat water more it vaporizes but always
at the same temperature.

Laurent
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