Significant water dissociation from 750 ° C !!!

Water injection in thermal engines and the famous "pantone engine". General informations. Press clippings and videos. Understanding and scientific explanations on the injection of water into engines: ideas for assemblies, studies, physico-chemical analyzes.
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Significant water dissociation from 750 ° C !!!




by nonoLeRobot » 20/02/06, 21:24

I was surprised by what I read on wikipedia:

Water decomposition (thermolysis and electrolysis)

The first decomposition of the water was done by Lavoisier, by passing water vapor over red-hot iron (thermolysis). In doing so, he established that water is not an element but a chemical body made up of several elements.

The thermolysis of the water starts to become significant towards 750 ° C, and it is total towards 3 000 ° C. The reaction produces dioxygen and dihydrogen

2H2O ↔ 2H2 + O


Suddenly, it makes the production of hydrogen by heat unbeatable ?! :? Maybe it's already somewhere on the forum
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by bolt » 20/02/06, 22:43

these 750 ° C would be even less in the pantone reactor, thanks to the magnetization present
but perhaps in a different form: H + and OH- or H-, I do not know, and even, if there is not in great quantity, the recombination of isolated atom is it seems much more energy (hydrogen torch principle)

still they have to recombine only after the compression phase of the engine

the principle of electrolysis, mentioned by Mr Moreau, seems to attribute the same advantages to the gas produced by its high frequency electrolysis system

would the "plasma" produced, evoked by Mr Pantone in his reactor have the ability to be stable to keep the atoms separate?

are there conditions which destroy this kind of ionized gas, after its creation? : (too hot; too cold, in the pipe after the reactor.
or when it arrives in the intake pipe containing air with too large a temperature difference, compared to itself, it loses its acquired advantages

the system evoked by Meyer (I correct: I mean Brown gas which implodes)

http://quanthomme.free/carburant/GazBrown.htm
makes me speculate in another way:
he talks about implosion with the use of the gas produced by his system and there is only a little water left as a result

if the gas produced by the pantone system did the same, but in the compression phase: the engine would save energy for this compression phase

I know that it looks very very big,

: Arrow: the piston would be sucked in the "compression" phase and discharged in the explosion phase
: Arrow: hence a much quieter engine

there would be 2 engine times out of the 4

I also know : Arrow: how would diesel find heat to ignite?

that said, the amount of gas produced by the reactor probably leaves enough room for air to activate the explosion

the engine makes less noise, and at the same time you feel blown away

any other way to make more of an engine make it make more noise

Isn't that a bit logical somewhere?

bolt [/ url]
Last edited by bolt the 21 / 02 / 06, 11: 24, 1 edited once.
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by Other » 20/02/06, 23:03

Hello bolt
The noise in an engine most often comes from the too rapid ignition of a certain portion of fuel in the chamber
whether auto diesel or expolsion engine,
the water would slow down or make this combustion more conductive or uniform.
Runs a diesel in the cold weather it is very noisy, it bangs as if everything wanted to tear off, restart the same engine but an electric diesel heater (as some northern vehicle are equipped) you will see the difference even when starting in cold weather , the engine is much quieter.

Andre
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by sam17 » 20/02/06, 23:41

I have at home some book of course on the theory of operation of the diesel engine and of memory it seems to me that they explain the knocking by the formation of peroxides due to the bad vaporization of the diesel. Namely, the colder the diesel injected into the chamber, the more it will tend to form large fuel droplets, the less it will have at its disposal of air to burn, out of diesel subjected to high temperatures and pressures transforms into peroxides lack of oxygen to make it burn and the problem with peroxides is that they are explosive instead of being simple fuel as is basic diesel.

It seems to me that the injection of water prevents the formation of these peroxides by limiting the temperature to which the drops of diesel are brought.

But it's late and I'm pretty tired, I'll see tomorrow if I find this book, I would scan the passage on the combustion. It will save me from saying too much stupidity, I'm not at all sure that my memories are true!
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by bolt » 20/02/06, 23:49

good evening André

when the engine is hot, the diesel is supposed to ignite as it leaves the injector and the pressure gradually rises

the noise of a cold diesel engine is, I think, due to the fact that combustion cannot start at the same time as the start of the injection of diesel:
the air in the combustion chamber being admitted cold (normal, until then), but being very cooled by the walls of the cylinder (during the compression which is in the process of raising its temperature)
not yet warm enough and not compressed to its maximum either (start of injection = advance, so not yet at top dead center)

the diesel fuel arrives and the piston continues to rise but there is still no ignition

diesel is largely injected when the temperature is sufficient for inflammation
and all the diesel present in advance ignites instantly and creates this click

so it's good as you say: too fast ignition of the portion of diesel because tartar ignition in this case

well not all the diesel, because there is a part which makes a film on the walls and finished ejected unburnt by the exhaust

less unburned when the engine is warm,
that the pantone decreases further by slightly warming up the intake

as for my post above it is only pure speculation, but when we look for a reason, we try all reasoning

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by sam17 » 21/02/06, 22:01

well, here is what my book says on the subject:


Image

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It dates a bit (1974) but the principle remains the same it seems to me on most diesels.
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by bolt » 21/02/06, 22:49

good evening sam17

I would like to see page 17, where they talk about peroxides

I simply believed physical the appearance of knocking (consequence of the ignition delay), by my simple logical reflection

I haven't read enough books yet

see you
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by sam17 » 22/02/06, 08:52

For my part in any case, reading this book made me change my mind on many points concerning the operation of a diesel engine. I always had the impression that a diesel engine was simpler than a petrol engine, this is no longer the case today!

here is the chapter about peroxides:

Image

Image

Image

What is interesting on these three pages is that it looks a bit like the results of the pantone process but with a completely different method!

In any case, the more I advance the more I am convinced that it is the control of the combustion temperature which is essential for a good engine efficiency, which allows water doping in a diesel engine.
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by Other » 22/02/06, 21:20

Hello Sam
Very interesting these pages.
this confirms what I thought about turbulence, this explains why on certain engines the turbulators are less efficient
especially place in front of the turbo, or on new engines with a prechamber, turbulence is difficult to maintain through this little trout.
the other principle is the two-stage injection that is encountered especially with electronic injections, which is more difficult to achieve in mechanics.
Another thing that I learned not to heat the diesel too much, although in practice I was limited to 70c, difficult to go higher with a water exchanger. (with too hot diesel oil the idling is reduced, old bosch pump)
For a walk with 100% potato oil you have to increase the advance
by a few degrees, the cetene index must be lower than diesel.
Now all the hypotheses, on the humid air that we send into the combustion chamber, are open.
In our reasoning it should not be forgotten that the water doping principle also works on explosion engines
not as effective but there are results.
It remains for us to know why that when it sends too much water it becomes less efficient. What is the right water ratio for maximum yield. At first considering the quantity of water and directly linked to the injected fuel and not to the swallowed air, a downstream diesel more air (by piston stroke) at idle than at high speed, at idle the cylinder fills up well and a drop of diesel is injected. it is at low speed that the diesel approaches the real cycle.
What we are missing is feedback from experimenters, because the tendency and to walk with a maximum of water, they think that we are burning water! let water replace diesel!
My opinion the water helps combustion, and it's already not bad.
What surprises me is the silence of the big manufacturers
on this process, he does not even seek to demolish the process openly. And I am sure that they have already gone through all this editing.

Andre
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by sam17 » 22/02/06, 23:06

there is also a whole series of descriptions on the different types of diesel engines and their characteristics. If interested I can put them on the forum without bp, as long as it helps to move forward ...
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