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Water injection in thermal engines and the famous "pantone engine". General informations. Press clippings and videos. Understanding and scientific explanations on the injection of water into engines: ideas for assemblies, studies, physico-chemical analyzes.
bernardd
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by bernardd » 13/12/09, 17:12

Hello,

Do you have a link that shows the temperature and pressure conditions in an internal combustion engine cylinder?

For my part, I found this link very interesting on the steam pressures: http://www.sodiet.com/Portals/_sodiet/Documents/DOC260208.pdf

Mirror: https://www.econologie.info/share/partag ... KddrXg.pdf

At 250 ° C, the steam already has a pressure of 40bars, and I had seen a document (lost :-( which announced 87bars for 550 ° C roughly.) If someone has other references ..?

For me, the main contribution of water injection in the liquid state (fog = liquid droplets and not steam!) Is that the water vaporizes by creating a pressure much stronger than the simple gas expansion due to temperature (PV = nRT), while absorbing excess heat that is no longer used for anything, which cools the engine.

In addition, the drop in temperature prevents the formation of nitrogen oxides and dioxins, which is significantly better against pollution.

Easy to check with temperature and pressure measurements ... But I never had time to lean over it. If anyone to these measures?

In a fixed engine for cogeneration, it would be even more important to condense the exhaust gases to recover the latent heat of the water, as for gas condensing boilers.
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by Remundo » 13/12/09, 18:51

Hi Dd,

bernardd wrote:Hello,

Do you have a link that shows the temperature and pressure conditions in an internal combustion engine cylinder?

This basically obeys PV ^ g = cte
and TV ^ (g-1) = cte
with g = 1.4
as long as there is no combustion with P in Pascal, V in m3 and T in Kelvin.
Then, the combustion is rather isochorous for gasoline engines and rather isobar for Diesel.

For my part, I found this link very interesting on the steam pressures:
http://www.sodiet.com/Portals/_sodiet/D ... 260208.pdf

Thank you for the link. Fractions of water and vaput depend on P, T and V, as shown on an Andrews diagram
At 250 ° C, the steam already has a pressure of 40bars, and I had seen a document (lost :-( which announced 87bars for 550 ° C roughly.) If someone has other references ..?

Except that the water cools the mixture, but not enough to prevent the temperature rise of the compression then the explosion.
For me, the main contribution of water injection in the liquid state (fog = liquid droplets and not steam!) Is that the water vaporizes by creating a pressure much stronger than the simple gas expansion due to temperature (PV = nRT), while absorbing excess heat that is no longer used for anything, which cools the engine.

During admission, the water will effectively remove residual heat from the otherwise lost cylinder walls. What makes that in the beginning of compression, the mixture is a little more energetic than dry air.

In addition, the drop in temperature prevents the formation of nitrogen oxides and dioxins, which is significantly better against pollution.

Absolutely, less NOx. But it seems that the effect is even more intense by promoting more complete combustion of the hydrocarbon ...

In a fixed engine for cogeneration, it would be even more important to condense the exhaust gases to recover the latent heat of the water, as for gas condensing boilers.

When is the domestic cogeneration condensing engine? Decentralized production of heat and electricity. :P
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by bernardd » 13/12/09, 19:06

"Except that the water cools the mixture, but not enough to prevent the temperature rise of the compression then the explosion."

Fortunately :-)

We can not really speak of explosion, it is an abuse of language.

"During the intake, the water will effectively take residual heat on the cylinder walls otherwise lost. So that at the start of compression, the mixture is a little more energetic than dry air."

It is especially during and after combustion that water droplets will vaporize by absorbing heat but increasing the pressure.

It is after the combustion that it would be necessary to measure in situ, to be able to compare without and with injection of water.

But easier to ask than to do, I know ...

If someone had a link to measures without water injection already? this would make a rough calculation of liquid water injection.
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by Remundo » 13/12/09, 19:32

bernardd wrote:We can not really speak of explosion, it is an abuse of language.

Well ... there is always explosion (but not water of course)

During intake, the water will effectively take residual heat from the cylinder walls otherwise lost. This means that at the start of compression, the mixture is a little more energetic than dry air. "

Bernardd: It is especially during and after the combustion that the droplets of water will vaporize by absorbing the heat but increasing the pressure.

Ah it is not so obvious, because the air / water mixture quickly becomes hotter than the cylinder during the work of compression of the piston ... The water vaporizes yes, but not by taking the heat on the engine block
It is after the combustion that it would be necessary to measure in situ, to be able to compare without and with injection of water.

But easier to ask than to do, I know ...

And here you have everything :P
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by FPLM » 01/03/10, 18:35

Hello,
My car, an opel astra dielsel 2004, has passed the technical control. She is ok but the CO2 test not good.
If I build a pantone system, could I still pass the Belgian technical inspection?
If so, and that the CO2 test is good (which will be the case, I do not go over much) the system test will be indirectly certified by auto security no?

PS:
I do not know if I'm in the right thread ...
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by swift2540 » 01/03/10, 21:30

FPLM wrote:My car, an opel astra dielsel 2004, has passed the technical control. She is ok but the CO2 test not good.
If I build a pantone system, could I still pass the Belgian technical inspection?
If so, and that the CO2 test is good (which will be the case, I do not go over much) the system test will be indirectly certified by auto security no?

From what I read (on this site but I do not know where) if they see the pantone, they will make you disassemble (non-compliant)
By cons, if you're almost ok, 2 full with sp95 and you'll be good.
FYI, I drive in Kangoo DTI 2001 with sp95 (~ 6pleins before CT). At last year's CT, I was sending 1 / 2 the maximum allowed pollution. 8)
@+
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by FPLM » 02/03/10, 09:19

Ah OK.
How is it that this system that has already proven its worth is not approved?
What would it take to make it?
[Edited]
Last edited by FPLM the 02 / 03 / 10, 09: 50, 1 edited once.
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by coucou789456 » 02/03/10, 09:48

Hello

may not be buying a new vehicle but at first do as the saying goes swift2540 by adding SP95 to your full diesel (between 7 and 10% max, beyond no noticeable effect) which produces a real fuel economy, about 10%, with less smoke and therefore better combustion, and therefore pollution attenuated.

it is also true that in France, pollution control of diesel is only done on the opacity of the fumes.

a few econologists, including myself, have switched to E85 fuel as an additive in the same proportions, which would produce an even better effect than the SP95.

jeff
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by FPLM » 02/03/10, 09:54

Yes thanks.
I edited the previous post because I read the thread "car-diesel-consume-less-with-a-little-of-sp95" and obviously my training as an apprentice econologist still suffers from a lot of prejudices. As the diesel engine is designed to admit diesel only. I am however the first to say that it is more complex than that but I evolve. Thanks to you.
Thank you, I'm going to try and get back into control! :D
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by coucou789456 » 02/03/10, 10:12

Hello again

and the result is visible when filling the tank, no need to wait several full to see the improvement.

personally, I put the SP95 first and then the fuel oil so that the mixing due to the filling is ideal.

if you still have half of a full tank of diesel, it is easy to calculate the amount of SP95 to add. moreover while driving, the fuel in the tank is quite buzzed so that the mixture becomes homogeneous quickly.

jeff
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