details Pellet Stove: disassembly photos, maps ...

[jonule]

good game;
you do not isolate the fireplace this time, as you do for wood stoves? it's because it's a pellet stove / don't you need the same temperature?
you can just point your subject on the improvement of a wood stove by insulation / air heating please? =)
cimer

[bidouille23]

Hello ,

well thank you for nothing Jonul your are welcome;) ...

you do not isolate the fireplace this time, as you do for wood stoves? it's because it's a pellet stove / don't you need the same temperature?

In my little Breton head, I forgot to isolate the outside of the stainless steel fairing, arfff, but nothing is lost and I already think I know the faults of my crucible lol ... not high enough, so not enough distance to properly heat the secondary air injected too low ... Basically I know that I will spend a little time to redo a crucible (basically I will take my time short , with some calculations in passing;)) ...

In short no insulation but cast iron, for me the hearth comes down to the crucible, the rest is part of the exchanger ...

In a wood stove it is not the same ... it must be degassed and then mixed roughly we imagine that the stove is the gasifier, we find:

in the lower part: the ashtray, the ash, the charcoal activated by the primary air, the wood in pyrolysis.

in the upper part: the gases due to pyrolysis which are our fuel. and the mixture of heated secondary air ...

In the gasifier, everything is "condensed" so less loss, in a wood stove it is bigger and therefore more loss.
The insulation in the hearth therefore becomes an obligation in order to allow good pyrolysis and not too bad combustion of the degassed products.
So you have to look at the fuel side , logs 50 cm by 8 cm in diameter. or compressed logs of 1 cm by 0.6 mm in diameter ...

This is how I see it ...

in summary insulation of the hearth yes (temporarily forgotten in the battle), and on a camping wood gas stove insulated outside also helps ...

you can just point your subject on the improvement of a wood stove by insulation / air heating please? =)
cimer

that is to say ? not understand "you can just point" ?? you know it took me 5 years to learn how to use the "quote" ...

[bidouille23]

Hello ,


he is in place , the tests will be able to start ...



at the rear, my assembly which is not very long a small 50 cm, but this part of the smoke casing being the hottest I should have gained some degree ... the system has a large potential for optimization , no baffle, just the two concentric tubes in the current state ...



there it is the version a little fuzzy but on which we see below in black the casing of the smoke, the fexible aluminum is obviously for the air.



The ext tube is therefore a 110 because there were no 100 diam. at the supplier ... it's going to do it anyway ...

To close the 110 tube:

1 / I have requested my useful length of stainless steel (straight length); so 49 cm for me ...
2 / I draw a first line on the stainless steel tube (in the peripheral direction), which will be my flap mark on the smoke pipes. Or 1 cm
3 / I draw 1.5 cm from the 1st line (or 2.5 from the edge;)), a second line which will be my folding to form the angle of the fairing
4 / I carry my length 49 cm
5 / I postpone the 1.5 cm
6 / I postpone the 1 cm
7 / I cut at the last stroke
8 / we cut each end, with shears or a disc 1mm thick. (The smaller the cuts the cleaner the work ...;) I made them medium ...
9 / we fold inwards at the line at 2.5 from the edge (N1 on the photo)
10 / we fold upwards while pinching at the level of the line 1 cm from the edge, we push downwards, finishing folding ... suddenly the first angle takes shape (N 2)



I specify that I cut to the tear just for the photo not having done during manufacture ....




when everything is folded, it gives a reduction with a tab to put a metal clamp.
Personally I taped to make a seal, and put a double layer under the location of the collar; once tightened the collar if necessary or by safety you can cover the collar with a strip of tape of course ...


For outputs, it's basically the same principle, except that we have a tube nesting ...

So not to take too much cabbage;), I left on the sheath of 80 mm instead of the original 50 mm diameter ...
So I allowed myself to make a leg system as before, but in the tube itself ... ??
In the body of the tube we draw the circle at the desired location of course ...

a grinder to make cheese ... like the trivial pursuit ...

a shear to remove the central tip of each cheese

we fold the papattes, which will come inside the connection tube with the flexible.

The connection tubes are just a piece of the rest of the stainless steel tube, cut rolled, crimped with the crimper for placo rail;) ... fast efficient ...

we cut these small tubes so that it follows the shape of the tube

from the neck it comes if the work is well done around the legs raised just before.

from above covers interior exterior with aluminum tape special fire seen that we bought to properly seal the casing of smoke;) ...

The idea is to have something without holes if it is important .... it took me a few hours I must admit ... but I am rather optimistic when the result ...

Result which will not remain in place next winter, it changes destination so the assembly is temporary .... but it will be redone by brazing I think it will be more beautiful ...

Short

Scotch tape, what a wonderful idea ... a thin double-sided tape on a flat braid, well dusted and we have a self-adhesive seal (which sometimes only takes time to put the piece in place before tightening it but what is it? is practical at times ...) ...

So, apart from that I know where I am planted in the crucible as I said, there is more than ... try it like that anyway ...


I did the blatant apparent leak test yesterday

I have draft (especially yesterday with the wind), so much draft that in the crucible it activated the paper very much, but ball still allowed me to have enough smoke to see the leaks ...

Stove off of course ... review, door anointed to change despite an appearance of tightening ... and yes .... it is easy to have ...

And in the case of a stove it is not leaking ...

Suddenly door seal changed ...

test: Ok, no more smoke or smell of smoke, I validate ...

I come back to the draw, I did not talk about the draw moderator too often absent from the pellet stove smoke circuits ...

Except in cases where the stove is provided with a management (I don't know all the system maybe there are some who do that ???),
Without moderator and a conduit filling the mini draft recommended by the manufacturer, we will have an anarchic system ....

let me explain: we regulate combustion levels (adjustment according to pellet, casing, stove etc etc)

Numerically

the system therefore aims to be optimized and stable ....

LA above we put a casing that does not pull enough in early fall for example and early mid spring (for example), or so that pulls too ....

From a stable and optimized system we move on to something or you don't know ... just you don't know what's going on because the parameters change ....

Amha of course ;) ....



see you

[Philippe Schutt]

Holes, larger but less numerous, above the bottom of the crucible diagonally pierced towards the bottom to lift the ash. if there is enough breath it should help to fly ...
I agree it's scabrous as reasoning, but I like the mechanics chance ... and increase holes is easy, reduce them in the cast iron that is more it is less easy even if completely possible. ..

Not scabrous, it works at least in part. I use this method to improve some badly fucked crucibles. The crucibles are generally not very deep, there is very little wood inside during normal operation, so the secondary air arrives above the wood. In my opinion, this notion of primary / secondary air loses much of its interest in a pellet appliance.

Poujoulat claims that preheating the combustion air leads to a gain of up to 10%. So all good. The defect is that the whole device is warmer, everything happens at a significantly higher temperature. So the beast must hold up! Hopefully your reinforcements will suffice.

draw: the basic stoves do not take account of variations, but in the hearth the depression due to the extractor is of the order of 60 Pa. So in theory it is little influenced, in practice we note that a moderator is sometimes necessary. eh yes !
More advanced stoves take into account either depressions or the volume of combustion air.

insulation of the hearth: here too I confirm. Besides, some manufacturers make vermiculite fireplaces for this reason (among others). So there is not even stainless steel or cast iron to absorb some of the heat, the containment is immediate. The problem is especially visible in slow motion, from 5kw the fireplace is hot enough to burn well even without insulating.

[bidouille23]

Hello,


Philippe Schutt

insulation of the hearth: here too I confirm. Besides, some manufacturers make vermiculite fireplaces for this reason (among others). So there is not even stainless steel or cast iron to absorb some of the heat, the containment is immediate. The problem is especially visible in slow motion, from 5kw the fireplace is hot enough to burn well even without insulating.

at low speed it seems to me probably probably effective, but I would say that it also depends a lot on the geometry of the hearth .... in the one that is presented, the hearth comes down to a rectangle with two smoke outlet mouths which do not its neither more nor less than two rectangular tube sections .... No deflector nothing .... the heat goes directly into it .... The only effect of vermiculite or white refractory plates that I imagine really effective would be at the level of infrared reflection ... but I don't know anything I imagine ... depending on what I saw or thought I understood by reading and discussing with other fans ...

So I come to this passage:

Not scabrous, it works at least in part. I use this method to improve some badly fucked crucibles. The crucibles are generally not very deep, there is very little wood inside during normal operation, so the secondary air arrives above the wood. In my opinion, this notion of primary / secondary air loses much of its interest in a pellet appliance.

So we get to the heart of the matter;) ...
So I'm going to take pictures and other measures, I set to spin the machine yesterday, after some problems ...

The concern is that I could not have real measures of yields, because my forced air fan is dead ... condo change, you have to start the fan by hand so that it starts, and it does not turn super fast but enough .... in short


So I confirm the crucible is emptying, however the noise is that of a burner .... the fact of having no leakage at the level of the force forces the air has passed where it can either, in the end I have too much air power ...

To this is added the way of controlling the flame by level, which is downright disabling for fine adjustment ...

Anyway I would come back to it I don't have time there ...

So in summary I would say that depending on how we consider the way to burn the implementation is not the same ...

In my idea we can really work in the manner of a wood gas stove .... and there the notion of primary and secondary air takes on its full meaning .... whether it is burning from bottom to top or from top to bottom (reverse combustion where all the gases pass through the ember bed, the top) ....

Or then work by more or less closing the smoke outlets
(I play with this principle in my stove when I want to gain a little heat), but it is dangerous and a perfect control must be applied (not for me, except by hand on the wood stove) ... .
I think playing with a wood gas stove is very instructive, I made the turbo woodgaz stove with its 3 W of fan and 3Kw of power, in a kettle I needed 7 min roughly to boil 1 l of water .... the kettle whistled and this with twigs not pellet ////

In conclusion I do not see how the stove is different from the crucible ... and I do not see how a degassing and a combustion different so much by what they are made outside or in a confined enclosure that we name stove ...

Poujoulat claims that preheating the combustion air leads to a gain of up to 10%. So all good. The defect is that the whole device is warmer, everything happens at a significantly higher temperature. So the beast must hold up! Hopefully your reinforcements will suffice.

If the device is warmer it is necessary to cool it more so extract more heat to inject it into the house, so in the end increase the efficiency .... if indeed it is increase the temperature only l interest is zero .... see even reverse because harmful to the longevity of the stove ....
But I may be wrong .... it is only my way of seeing things ...

So I would put the photos of the temperature tester with a probe by entering a probe just after the exchanger ...

balance in slow mode, I gain 40 ° C and 50 ° in power 3 ...




other good news the inertia of the stove , huge . I leave the forced air fan in forced operation; it blows hot air for 4 minutes app ...

The hot air when it comes out at the moderate temperature of 85 ° C, the fan I remind is to change .... but this is a good omen ...


I come back later in detail on a lot of points read bone apmd day all that all ...

[Philippe Schutt]

The only effect of the vermiculite plate or white refractory plate that I imagine effective really would be at the level of the infrared reflection ... but I do not know anything I imagine ... depending on what I saw or believed understand by reading and talking with other fans ...

Yes, that too. A plate of calcium silicate at the bottom of the hearth will have 2 effects:
1. return of the IR towards the front, therefore towards the flames and towards the glass, which increases the radiation emitted by the stove and increases the flame T ° (perhaps tiny)
2. isolates the rear flue channel from the heat of the flame. So hotter stove and lower smoke outlet temperature.

So I confirm the crucible is emptied, on the other hand the noise is that of a burner .... the fact of having no leakage at the level of the frame forces the air to pass where it can either, in the end I have too much air power ...

Would you have closed the "clean glass" air inlet on the door? There must be some holes that I didn't see in the photos, like a row at the bottom;)

[bidouille23]

Hello ,

Yes, that too. A plate of calcium silicate at the bottom of the hearth will have 2 effects:
1. return of the IR towards the front, therefore towards the flames and towards the glass, which increases the radiation emitted by the stove and increases the flame T ° (perhaps tiny)
2. isolates the rear flue channel from the heat of the flame. So hotter stove and lower smoke outlet temperature.

Question on point number 2 :

Isn't it more favorable to maximize the exchange of the rear part of the fireplace? in the case of the stove shown here, just behind the fireplace there is the "exchanger" for the forced air ... the smoke is joined in a duct still located behind roughly it makes a rectangle tube surrounded by hot walls ...

But at the same time the logic of the insulation is there too ... humm


That said it gives me an idea of ​​geometry combining the two advantages;) ...

Would you have closed the "clean glass" air inlet on the door? There must be some holes that I didn't see in the photos, like a row at the bottom;)

You don't see them by what they don't have ...
At the same time you have to bypass the system to keep a waterproof stove with holes in it;). I like the principle without hole ...
I still have to really size the air intake according to the average quantity of pellet arrival and the depression, and I should have arrived at something optimal ...

For now I continue without insulation but with a variation or two variants say ...


1 / at the crucible ... I add a double inner wall of the crucible, tinsel currently. it is distant from 1.5 2mm mm cast iron ... when the setting is good, there is the same flamed with a gas stove wood.

2 / change as jonul and you have pointed out is important, and that is the creation of a closer focus of the crucible as the original home ... I will put a picture is mounting among many other, a flashy cut the shears to see the impact on direct reading testo with the probe positioned after the faux exchanger primary air ...

It's still ugly but effective time ... the proof image, the principle of confined and forced the mixture is rather not bad at sight reading results, despite a Co rate still too high for my taste 0.03 instead des0.02 announced in 5 0.03% in power and reduced power, but at the same time it is on the power 3 ...

At slowdown the efficiency drops 83% on average, and the Co rises slightly with oxygen ... I don't know where the setting is for the screw in eco mode ... I found the air I think, it is a priori the air of power 1 (it's strange ... there must be other settings hidden ???) but good at the same time as you said philippe in low speed combustion is bad .... or degraded in any case ... in a simple system like this one anyway.

So for the moment the numbers are (variable but the top that's it for the moment, when the number of pellet is brought pile pile), and always with a forced air fan in slowed down mode:



http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2g8zvu_video0015_tech

CO 0.033% to 12.7% O2

yield 87% (for those who want to know the calculation method it is provided in the manual of the tester) ...

Little better but the track is confirmed I think, I will make sure to put a fan that works to play on the performance ...

And cleanly remake this rotten montage ... the crucible is to be reviewed too, it's clear ...

In the end, what is most annoying is the variable fuel supply ... the holes in the screw screw up the dawa sometimes as well as the full ones over several laps ...

All this to see a flame ... we come to technological solutions either sick or messy to correct an original design defect to match the taste and not the optimization essentially .... you have to see the flame if not people buy not ...

Brief to be continued

[jonule]

"point" I meant a link to your mod of isolated stove (but I found it between 2)

by "tinsel" it is very practical anyway and you see: it makes the "blue" flame of the woodgas stove.

I have myself a wood stove camper stove that runs on 2 1.5v batteries for the fan and wood twigs (in small pellets), the blue flame is not a legend, especially in the evening when it is dark; I bought it all made a few years ago ...
only problem with this model: you have to fill the twigs by hand!

> then hack, why don't you put your turbo woodgaz assembly in your pellet peole, which would feed it suddenly? =)
Besides, is it possible to see photos of your montage turbowoodgas stp?

for the rest I agree: some wood stoves are very prehistoric, and the 1st pellet must necessarily be: so good luck!

[bidouille23]

Hi jonul, well blue nickel the flame I never had it, blue inside yes by cons, from the flame but never entirely ... it's a glue that you put me there ... the only flames entirely blue wood gas that I saw came from a gasifier ... but I am far from having seen everything so in my idea with the tar present in a classic combustion not beautiful pure blue, I was stay here ....

My turbo stove is the trash for one or two years, I had just done it for delirious because no use in everyday life ...

made of paint can and a snail pc fan ... kind 3 w ... but the diameters and number of holes was completely random ... kind not scientific calculation, rather ladle ...

Smaller holes at the bottom for greater pressure on the embers, larger holes at the top for more mixing and less penetration, and a ratio of 1/3 below 2/3 above for the volume of injected air ...

You have a way to put a photo or two of your wood gas? With the dimensions would be the must ...

Why I do not put my montage the answer is already there now I wanted to see if it would be possible, answer yes, so it's worth it to take the lead, to have a combustion of the least polluting, with this dinosaur ...

Obviously in comparison with stoves with controlled combustion it is a bit like the stone wheel against the aluminum rim with high-tech tire ... but the challenge is rather nice .... I continue a little every night or almost to try out forms of fairing ...


And above all I plan a day to average the number of pellets falling, for certain speed ranges, then I will be able to work with as well as the vacuum for each extraction speed.

Which should allow me to optimize the amount of air, even if the 1st and 2nd ration will not be perfect because the entry will be common ...
It will in any case be much better ... I will do the best ... not won it but since the depression is fairly stable it should stick ...

brief to follow ....

[bidouille23]

Bonjour,

I have 5 seconds to tell you I got lost, but I just opened my eyes

good the principle of the turbo stove will work there like that, the modif should be much more important to allow the descent of the combustion air through the embers .... in short I was in the west normal for a Breton ...

So I listened to phillipe's way , if if the one who told me to increase the diameter of the holes at the bottom, well I increased sparingly in testo the result of course;) ...

And for the moment in speed 3 and 5 (I am concentrating on the bi speed for the moment I will have to do my best for the slowdown it is not won) ....

I'm going to put the videos of the two testo power in front of the stove so that we can see the flame and the measurement.

CO: permanently less than 0.02%, closer to 0.02 at speed 3 and close to 0.01% at speed 5

Yield between 86.5% minimum and it climbs 89%

O2 drops to 8.5% and goes up around 13% on average ...

so great re cleaning of the hearth, with my messy tests (I found as said the other optimist, several effective ways not to have a good combustion .... it only remains for me to refine the method that works)

I'm putting the videos tonight or tomorrow

see you