Storage and geo thermal phase shift in soils

[Christophe]

To:

Well yes the non-stagnant groundwater (and they are very rarely ... for what I know in geology, ie not much) is the whole problem of thermal storage in soil ...dede is a bit deaf to this

[Obamot]

Is there a geologist in the room?

[Obamot]

... and hop, I updated the introductory topic:

https://www.econologie.com/forums/stockage-e ... tml#193271

Which makes it a synthesis thread.

[dedeleco]

Christophe wrote:
Well yes the groundwater not stagnant (and they are very rarely ... for what I know in geology, ie not much) is the whole problem of thermal storage in soil ... dede Dismissed Cheesy Grin

and Christophe also ignores the techniques of cement injection and other more expensive products to seal the periphery and stop this circulation which is very variable from one place to another as noted by dowsers with methods that are real scientific mysteries !!
This is well known, the injection by the pros of the big structures and it remains to simplify and to make cheap: injection of slow-setting liquid cement under pressure of some Bars (car tire) which diffuses should walk to seal the periphery !!
Decreasing the price of the holes will inject tighter.

Finally there is a lot of place with the very deep water table, my case in the 77 more than 60m deep.
There are even layers of fine surface clay full of water on 80m thick deeper dry sand in the Paris region (78 and 91) that walk below the clay !!
Christophe should learn about the geology of his garden to see better.
There may be a still water pocket or aquifer in some places, ideal !! Ask a valuable dowser to find where the water is still, the opposite of his usual work !!

And there are plenty of neglected solutions instead of giving up too quickly.

It's a bit more complex than turning the knob on a PAC that works with much more complex and dangerous nuclear power plants sooner or later!
And I have to take care of my garden.

[Obamot]

Anyway, you will need of an "Authorization to build".

Such as it is called in my corner, and it can be obtained only by a company of civil engineering after study (in principle ... it is in the law)! A study office also, or an architect (perso I advise the latter if the goal is to achieve "savings" because its technical skills are limited ...)

[Obamot]

Because an individual has no right to go rummaging in the basement blindly and without knowledge of the land for work that already has a certain scope, and even less to install a network of tubes there by making circulate a fluid! All this requires at least an "implementation" in the standards. We have seen landslides, subsidence / s, impromptu piercing of existing pipelines and other inconveniences / phenomena for less than that ... In addition, it is necessary to know the location of the pipelines: water, gas, electricity .... and have the technical knowledge to know how to interpret land development plans! Depending on the region, there are also state prerogatives on "deposits", of some nature ...

Because the most important thing is security!

[Obamot]

As for passing this type of installation under a road, you need the authorization of the competent authorities (town hall, ad hoc service, etc.), and there is no need to even think about it! The roads are designed to circulate and not to draw energy from them (even if that's a shame). The "civil engineering / public works" standards exist and are sufficiently restrictive without having to add pipes underneath dug by a robot ...

[Christophe]

and Christophe also ignores the techniques of cement injection and other more expensive products to seal the periphery and stop this circulation which is very variable from one place to another as noted by dowsers with methods that are real scientific mysteries !!
This is well known, the injection by the pros of the big structures and it remains to simplify and to make cheap: injection of slow-setting liquid cement under pressure of some Bars (car tire) which diffuses should walk to seal the periphery !!
Decreasing the price of the holes will inject tighter.

Uh I know a little the price of this kind of products (sika in particular) since I had to intervene on the slab of my stamp in 2007, see here: https://www.econologie.com/forums/tampon-the ... t4517.html

Ben is not given at all when you want large areas / volumes!

I pass on the "not guaranteed" of results in the case of a hazardous waterproofing in depth!

The tankers are probably the best able to do this kind of stuff ... but they are the leaks they seek (except at BP ...)

No need to quibble: we can store in the soil on conditions of no infiltration there are stored calories (clay, clay, rocks ...).

How did they do to Drake? Surely a geologically adapted site ...

There may be more to gain with phase change materials in a non-water tank?

Calculated on the subject of palm oil: with 1 / 4 of oil one gains 2.2 times the energy compared to water alone and above all one buffers this energy towards the 40 ° C! And palm oil, if it's the greenest and cheapest MCP, it's probably not the best MCP ...

[dedeleco]

"not guaranteed" of results

Obviously since it is a fundamental innovation in France !!
It is necessary to innovate and it is by the immense result (free perpetual without CO2 and pollution), that one must be motivated to adapt it to the different geologies of ground.

Uh I know a little the price of this kind of products (sika in particular)

but there is the vulgar slow-setting liquid cement, to choose well, which penetrates everywhere where the water slips and mouth after taking !!
It is not the same watertightness as that of a concrete wall that is cracking due to aging and changes in the environment, which requires a product that remains flexible.

It is to develop but not insoluble and not very expensive, unlike the m3 of any technically efficient product with little more than 10 times in storage capacity per m3 and worth per liter the price of a m3 of earth or rock left in place !!
Per meter of cheap drilling of small diameter, one has at least 4m3 of earth or rock (distance of 2m).

There is a risk, but at the level of wallet, much less than with a phase change that must also isolate losses on 4 months correctly and very difficult without using the diffusion in what: the earth or body with immobilized water in alternating layers with a good hydrophobic insulation !!!

Calculate the thermal losses of a tank of what you want (2,2 times water) isolated from the usual way of 1 m3 or 10 or 100 or 500 m3 on 4 months !!

I must do my garden !!!

[Christophe]

dede, do you imagine the necessary hydraulic concrete m3, plus the study, plus the drilling / pouring means? It's almost oil industry!

This is case by case without guarantee of result because no soil is perfectly identical? So yes it can be used in some areas but really not everywhere, in Alsace for example, we can forget!

Well, I think we're starting to go around in circles ...it must be stamped solar energy is a certainty but it will cost less and much less problematic technologically to play ALSO on the energy needs, revised downward, than to try to stamp near 2000L oil!

It is therefore necessary to play on the 2 tables: energy buffering AND decreasing needs!

Tampon 300 400L equivalent fuel oil, with an MPC, is in the order of reasonable (and economically feasible without problems) and largely sufficient because there are days with sunshine in winter that can go up a little buffer ...

Am I wrong?