Solar: building with thermal buffer in Switzerland

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Solar: building with thermal buffer in Switzerland




View Christophe » 23/11/11, 14:02

Presentation and video of a concrete case: a solar building (Jenni) with solar thermal water buffer in Switzerland in Oberburg

This follows on from yesterday's debate over solar thermal energy storage by thermal buffer either in water or in soil or in phase change materials (MPC) either the 3 at the same time see the subjects (among others):

a) Storage in soils heating-insulation / storage-and-phase shift-geo-thermal-in-the-soil-t10470.html
b) Presentation of district heating in Canada: DLSC heating-insulation / heat-of-summer-in-the-winter-a-Drake-landing-solar-c-canada-t10828.html
c) Store thermal energy by MPC with palm oil: solar-thermal / store-of-the-thermal-energy-with-from-oil-palm-of-t7421.html
d) Another solar house with thermal water buffer on the same principle, the red tank also strangely resembles that of the building: https://www.econologie.com/maison-solair ... -3790.html et Solar-thermal / a-house-a-solar-thermal buffer-almost-self-t5233.html

How to fully heat a building with solar energy?

Heating is the main source of energy expenditure in our country and to heat us, we mainly burn non-renewable fossil fuels such as petroleum products, coal or natural gas. The combustion of these products is problematic because it is a source of atmospheric pollutants and in particular of CO2 and methane, gases which contribute to global warming. However, there are alternative solutions which make it possible to dispense completely with fossil fuels, this is particularly the case of the particularly innovative system proposed by the company Jenni.

Image

Building during construction. We can see very well the tank which allows to store the water heated by the solar panels.

Built in 2007 in Oberburg, a municipality in the Canton of Bern, the Jenni building is the first building to be fully heated with solar energy. It was imagined by Josef Jenni, one of the pioneers of solar energy in Switzerland and includes 8 apartments. To be able to do without fossil energy and be autonomous, this building has been very well insulated and the builders have developed a system that stores energy in summer or when the weather is good. This heat is then restored on the coldest and sunless days in winter.

* The key elements of construction

The building is labeled Minergie P, this means that it meets an even more demanding standard than that of the Minergie Label! To achieve this performance, the building is insulated from the outside, it has dual-flow ventilation which limits the energy losses linked to ventilation and also has double-glazed wooden windows which reduce heat loss and allow dwellings to benefit from passive sunshine.

* Heating and domestic hot water

The 276 m2 of solar panels heat the water of a tank of more than 200 liters. This tank accumulates heat during periods of significant radiation (summer, etc.) and releases hot water as needed (heating, sanitary use). It makes the building energy independent for these uses. The first beneficiaries of this system are the tenants who have not paid any heating and hot water charges since they moved in!

"Oil of Emmental": in the land of Emmental, it's not just cheese, there are also very good ideas

The solar building was imagined by Jenni, one of the main promoters of the “Oil of emmental” project. This project aims to make this territory more self-sufficient in energy. Indeed, this region must currently import nearly 90% of its energy needs which has an economic cost (160 Million Francs per year) and ecological (greenhouse gas emissions). However, according to current knowledge, the Emmental region could be supplied 80% thanks to local energies (wood, anaerobic digestion, solar ...) with the key local jobs and an energy supply largely neutral in CO2 .


Video on TSR: http://www.tsr.ch/video/info/journal-12 ... laire.html

Source: http://www.ecowizz.net/articles/2011/06 ... e-solaire/
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View Christophe » 23/11/11, 14:17

You see dedeleco, in this case they speak well of total autonomy (except electrical costs of pumping I presume ... unless there are some PV too?) ... therefore the storage in water can suffice provided to have a very good insulation class (Minergie in this case)

Jenni has already sold 14 installations worldwide, according to the report (most of them must be small thermal pads ...)
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dedeleco
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View dedeleco » 23/11/11, 14:27

Reading the title one has the impression that the building is in France and the stamp in Switzerland like the money !!!!

I think that links had already been given on econology (and wiipedia) even commercial, for this realization with basic buffer that 3 times that of Christophe !!!

You should see the real price excluding subsidies, typically Swiss !!
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View Christophe » 23/11/11, 15:20

a) Pfff bad faith!

b) Maybe but personally I had never seen, I had seen this one https://www.econologie.com/maison-solair ... -3790.html (whose stamp comes from the same company), video to watch again!

c) The price is announced at the end of the video: not "much" more than a conventional oil-fired installation ... this must indeed induce aid ... so what?

Better to be help to make a truly autonomous solution than to be help to install pseudo-green geothermal energy and burn uranium ...

:|
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clasou
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View clasou » 23/11/11, 15:33

Unless I am mistaken in the figures, following the disaster, in Japan.
The Swiss have increased from 100 to 200 million euros, aid for passive insulation, (wall and roof).
a + claude
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View Christophe » 23/11/11, 16:52

Obamot must be able to inform us about this ...

Another example, posted here: https://www.econologie.com/forums/post216933.html#216933

clasou wrote:Hello
@dedeleco
Here I just saw it's not the same system as dlsc https://www.econologie.com/forums/chaleur-d- ... 10828.html it looks like
http://www.actu-environnement.com/ae/ne ... 14158.php4

a + claude

Heat networks: thermal solar is struggling to gain a foothold

Used for the heat requirements of individual installations, solar thermal has difficulty in integrating heat networks. But lower costs could change the game in the future.

In France, eco-district projects are multiplying and are sometimes associated with the establishment of heating networks. These are mainly powered by geothermal energy, biomass and recovered heat, but only too rarely use solar thermal. In fact, this energy is used above all to meet the heating needs of houses and individual buildings. To specify the gains as well as certain obstacles linked to centralized use, the Amorce association carried out a study entitled "Solar thermal & heat networks".

First, the use of solar thermal in a heating network offers the possibility of supplying poorly oriented buildings with solar energy. Compared to individual or collective installations per building, this solution also makes it possible to optimize the efficiency of the equipment and therefore ensure better economic profitability, a criterion that is increasingly sought after. In this case, the study also underlines the fact that "the installation costs will be significantly lower for a single centralized installation compared to several installations". In addition, the client will be able to size the solar thermal to compensate for the losses linked to the distribution of heat.

A possibility to store solar energy produced in summer

Medium and long-term storage systems also exist to avoid wasting the energy produced. "Inter-seasonal storage is not necessary to install solar thermal on a district heating network, but the storage of part of the summer heat for use during the heating season makes it possible to increase very strongly the possible coverage rates of annual heat needs by solar ", specifies the study of the association. This storage is traditionally done in a large tank, buried or not, in aquifers. In order to limit thermal losses, it is carried out in large volumes of the order of several tens of thousands of cubic meters, the objective being to minimize the ratio between the stored energy and the exchange surface. Thus, "for a storage density of 50 kWh / m3, a volume of 60.000 m3 makes it possible to store around 3 GWh, ie the annual heat needs of around 200 medium-sized housing units or nearly 1.000 low-consumption housing units." In Europe, a few sites were equipped with this type of storage, which made it possible to "confirm the feasibility and technical relevance" of this solution. Other systems which would have higher energy storage densities are also being studied, such as phase change materials or by endothermic and exothermic chemical reaction techniques.

As for biomass or geothermal energy, users will be able to benefit from a VAT reduced to 5,5% and project owners from assistance from the Heat Fund when the network includes more than 50% of RE. In addition, the fact of choosing a solar thermal system decreases "any local pressure on wood energy supplies.

High cost and lack of space as main brakes

Despite these various advantages, the development of solar thermal energy to supply heating networks still faces obstacles, particularly of an economic nature. Even if it has fallen sharply in recent years, the still expensive investment cost leads to higher production costs per kWh than other renewables. "Even if the economic relevance compared to fossil fuels or wood is not yet proven, this sector remains an asset for the achievement of national objectives and also makes it possible to improve the image of heating networks", analysis the study.

The lack of space can also be a handicap, the establishment of solar thermal power plants and storage systems requiring large spaces. In addition, no text in the town planning documents specifies for the moment the areas that can be used for this purpose. Finally, "the installation of solar thermal connected directly to the heating network requires a low temperature network, which limits its development on existing networks in France, generally designed to operate at high temperature," notes the Amorce association. New solar collectors (high temperature planes, evacuated tubes and concentrator) providing higher temperature levels have been developed, but they remain significantly more expensive to purchase.

Article published on 21 November 2011

Clément Cygler


A first French network powered by solar thermal By the summer of 2012, the future eco-district of Vidailhan in Balma (31), in the suburbs of Toulouse, will be equipped with a heat network powered by an energy production plant combining high temperature solar collectors and biomass. Designed and operated by Cofely, a subsidiary of GDF Suez, this facility will provide 80% of the energy needs of 1.200 homes and will avoid the emission of more than 1.000 tons of CO2 per year. The Balma solar thermal plant will have 800 m² of sensors that will provide about 15% of the heat requirements, ie 50% of the hot water and 5 to 10% of the heating. Installed solar power should be of the order of 350 kWp for thermal generation from 500 to 600 MWh per year. This project is estimated at 3,7 million euros, partly subsidized by ADEME.


And my answer:

Christophe wrote:Nice article, thank you Clasou! Finally France goes there! It's going to be the jubilee of dedé! : Cheesy:

To copy in the subject of dedeleco: https://www.econologie.com/forums/chaleur-d- ... 10828.html

The particularly interesting passage is the following:

Therefore, "For a storage density of 50 kWh / m3, a volume of 60.000 m3 can store around 3 GWh, ie the annual heat requirements of around 200 medium-sized housing units or nearly 1.000 low-consumption housing units." In Europe, a few sites were equipped with this type of storage, which made it possible to "confirm the feasibility and technical relevance" of this solution. Other systems which would have higher energy storage densities are also being studied, such as phase change materials or by endothermic and exothermic chemical reaction techniques.


Some analyzes to compare with my installation https://www.econologie.com/forums/photos-mai ... t5283.html or this one: https://www.econologie.com/forums/une-maison ... t5233.html

a) 3 GWh for 200 housings = 15 000 kWh per housing = 1800 L of oil with 80% of efficiency
b) 2 GWh for 1000 housings = 360 L of oil equivalent = 2 to 3 wood steres (it is little but realizable: one is at 4-5 in the ardennes)
c) 60 000 m3 (water ??) for 1000 low energy housing fits well 70 m3 for 1 housing (what I have)
c) 50 kWh / m3 = 180 MJ / m3 = estimate of a delta of 43 ° C on water (this is quite high because it implies storage at more than 70 ° C to have useful energy " low T ° "to at least 30 ° C)
d) phase change materials = good idea but investment (much) heavier, read this topic: https://www.econologie.com/forums/stocker-de ... t7421.html

To be continued...
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Obamot
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View Obamot » 25/11/11, 01:10

Christophe wrote:
clasou wrote:Unless I am mistaken in the figures, following the disaster, in Japan.
The Swiss have increased from 100 to 200 million euros, aid for passive insulation, (wall and roof).
a + claude
Obamot must be able to inform us about this ...


I had heard of Jenni, but I was unaware of the existence of this report. So thank you 1000x.

I did not know that aid had increased, since in the first intention, the exit from nuclear power meant the suppression of all "aid", precisely to avoid the "clever bell-ringers" who are always good enough to put together files and cases. dragging around juggling with the figures ... but in the end with limit edits "combine», Just to touch the farm!

This new policy (which I approve, given that it is a bit like in Belgium ... from certain points of view ...) had however been confirmed at the National Council !!!

So they want solutions that "work" ... like what Jenni does (and goes in the right direction ...)

On the other hand, the "national" did everything to remove the need for requests "Building permit" (there is no longer any at all for photovoltaics mounted on light chassis, which is a revolution) and resources will be quickly swept away in the future ...

(so I don't know if it's true, but democracy is sometimes unpredictable in Switzerland ...)

All I can say is that Jenni is doing better than the project of the ETH teacher ... who is not looking for publicity for a "brilliant simplicity" solution ... Normal, he wants to promote the technical know-how of the school (... and possibly not get angry with certain circles ... But this last remark is only pure speculation!)

So yes, the most effective solutions will be those that will take advantage of:
- 2 thermal flasks (one at low, and the other at higher temperature)
- At least one fluid with thermal phase shift ....
And this, as we try to promote it here, with a good dose of wisdom .... Without a doubt, this is indeed the most efficient "light" solution, in our latitudes.
Last edited by Obamot the 25 / 11 / 11, 05: 18, 1 edited once.
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dedeleco
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View dedeleco » 25/11/11, 02:55

I remain frightened by: why keep it simple when it can be complicated and expensive !!
Land without a reservoir remains much cheaper for the same result !!
See demonstration at www.dlsc.ca

With these methods, you favor French nuclear power, which will have a nice game of saying that it is too expensive, complicated, reserved for special houses, etc., as for renewable, wind and solar, which cannot be stored, therefore unrealistic, to replace nuclear power plants, etc.

So, for my home, not new houses, I am looking for inexpensive extensions, small diameter for drills and store underground as simple and as cheap as possible (with unpretentious summer sensors, very inexpensive 16mm pipes and no more expensive extension drills, I aim for the price of a beautiful stove, because stingy, I don't waste in huge balloons or swimming pools, very expensive, with leaks sometimes (Sika very expensive by Christophe), while the earth is gratis, exactly as I get free wood from my neighbors who smoke me !! )
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View Obamot » 25/11/11, 04:39

Honestly, I have always been touched by your approach and can only support it => but exclusively with proven solutions! Because there, I'm afraid that your project will derail ...

You say "free", but it is not!

Why? Is the installation of Canadians free? How much is their gas heating bill? You see, it is not clear ... If it suits you, so much the better, but we can also be more demanding, with solutions EVEN SIMPLER, and Jenni's choice is ...

For once there is a functional installation WITHOUT input of fossil energy, you say to yourself "frightened?"What cheek you have! Do you have the truth alone, about storage in the ground or what?

It is we who are, AWAKENED, because it's been a while since we noticed your lack of caution on this subject ... Too bad!

On the contrary, Jenni's efforts show that you are taking pleasure in a heavy, expensive concept, which has not proven its effectiveness in ZERO EMISSION ... It works the JENNI tank, because it is perfectly calculated, and is safe IN construction! So it already benefits from the temperature that reigns at (-) 400m (i.e. 20 ° C, and even more, since the tank is isolated, its internal temperature can be MUCH higher ...) This clearly shows that a shallow thermal balloon is completely irrelevant in comparison: much too expensive and not efficient enough and requiring the grade of passive house of very high level ... Otherwise, what do you think ... Jenni would have done it, storage in the ground...! But he is not crazy, he knows what he is talking about and offers something high-flying, economical, and above all THAT WORKS! While you, for the moment you support a solution which is a step in the right direction, certainly, but which does not entirely satisfy us, for reasons that you know and that we keep repeating ... .

We all understood that what you want is to rehabilitate an old building ... But as you can see, you are setting the bar far too high! I would be you, I will contact Jenni, and she would tell you right away if your project is possible or not ... But the problem is that you are a little too "fixed" on a single solution! Thinking it's a panacea ... Alas, it's not that simple ...

However, God knows if we have been patient with you, sparing your susceptibility, it's been years ... but there is the drop of water that overflows! (This is the case to say it ^^)

And personally I have a raz-le-bol that you pollute the forum with an address which we do not even have feedback from the inhabitants, what is more, which uses an auxiliary heating with polluting gas. Yes, really, it is we who are terrified !!!

Talking about French nuclear power while Switzerland has decided to get out of it ... There you go a little strong ...

I TELL YOU THAT ON THIS POINT, IT IS YOU WHO ENCOURAGES NUCLEAR PROMOTION FOR WHAT IS NOW, RELATIVELY EXCEEDED, AND WHICH COMES ON THE SCAM, BY LOOKING FOR AN ENERGY SELF-SUFFICIENCY, WHICH IS NOT REAL IN THE FACTS! AND YOU KNOW IT VERY GOOD.

IF YOU CANNOT READ;

THE INHABITANTS OF JENNI RENTALS HAVE
ZERO HEATING COSTS!

I hope it gets into your mind! But if you knew how sorry I feel to write all this about you: you have no idea! How do you bring yourself back to reason? :|

I know you will react, but you are wrong. Sorry. : roll:
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fthanron
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View fthanron » 25/11/11, 08:49

1000x also thank you for this post and Christophe links, that this is positive news in the morning!
PS: I allowed myself to share the post on Facebook and Google+ what do you think?
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