Solar: building with thermal buffer in Switzerland

Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ... short thermal comfort. Insulation, wood energy, heat pumps but also electricity, gas or oil, VMC ... Help in choosing and implementation, problem solving, optimization, tips and tricks ...
Christophe
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by Christophe » 25/11/11, 09:44

dedeleco you re-become mega heavy there ... bordering on the troll ... : Evil:

fthanron wrote:1000x also thank you for this post and Christophe links, that this is positive news in the morning!
PS: I allowed myself to share the post on Facebook and Google+ what do you think?


a) You're welcome, Econo is there for that!
b) For sharing I can only encourage it: econo is not published enough on social networks.
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dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 25/11/11, 11:36

Funny, you do not do a serious bibliographic study, (there are other solutions), because you discover this Swiss system that I had seen more than a year ago, that you could have presented for a long time, and considering the price of a single very large tank, (3 to 5 times that of Christophe, 70m3,), necessary for a single old house difficult to better insulate, the basic French problem which favors nuclear, I had put aside this solution !!

The land is free, without a 300m3 tank, often with cheap leaks and therefore remains the best solution !!
Especially in my gardens, not to be demolished with huge trucks and cranes, as shown in the construction photos of this Swiss solution, which has a tank necessary for a single old house badly made !!! (almost all French people, not rich enough)

Have you quantified the prices ??

Christophe, like me, does not want to invest 50 to 100 years and more in heating in such a system !!!
And so he keeps his wood heating system !!
Like me the free wood recovered !!

What matters is the real price, with the cheapest solutions and not the very expensive zero emissions often !!!
Nuclear takes advantage of this excessive price to say that there is only realistic nuclear !! A madness.

The gas supplement for the DHW of www.dlsc.ca , which makes you peremptorily reject this simple solution is to limit prices and can be easily removed (especially at lower altitudes) or replaced by wood.

Anyway my problem is to find the inexpensive drilling at 10m depth used by Uretek or Geosec in deep cement !!
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by Christophe » 25/11/11, 16:10

Indeed storage by water tank is hardly possible in renovation, except, and dare to do it: the casing and flooding of a room in the cellar! Work possible but titanic! We can also imagine using part of the crawl space.

And after that, the tens of m² needed and the hydraulic network will have to be installed!

So in renovation, unless very specific conditions, it seems delicate and, even saving primary energy, it may be better to favor insulation ...

Otherwise, under renovation: one can imagine making an extension / annex which would contain the buffer and the solar panels ...
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by Obamot » 25/11/11, 20:56

Bein woui, but this is where Dédé's reasoning does not hold water!

If a thermal balloon, based on precise calculations and high-flying technology (although very simple in design) can barely work with a passive house of the latest generation, how does it plan to do so by trapping its energy recovered under much less convincing conditions: at a theoretically least favorable depth, without a powerful insulation around to contain the heat and with a dimensioning of the installation relaitvement made with a pifometer ... (Having regard to the important load of energy needed to heat, as we realize when heating with fossil fuels!)

=> and what is more, in order to re-stabilize an old construction ...!

Do not push !!! : Mrgreen:

It's already wonderful what we manage to do! It is therefore a little normal that we have to dig deeply to find conditions similar to the constructions of JENNI, for an ad hoc thermal balloon to play the role that we expect ... Because I leave you imagine the condensation that the "stack effect" would produce from a poorly dimensioned design, which would inevitably be the case with precarious storage conditions (thus carried out close to the surface). I do not doubt that there is a gain, what I doubt is that it is sufficient!

Thus, everyone will quickly understand the power of the heat exchanges that there can be at this depth (except complex installation, DIY at the small week immediately compromise such an approach) ....

Well, well I hope that little by little, light is shed on this file, and that common sense will take over.
Last point: the cost!

Are passive houses so expensive?

Quick calculation in my corner, for an old building, but still isolated with terracotta brick gallendages. Result: € 4 of heating per year!

Over 60 years, it pays half the house!
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dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 26/11/11, 02:24

Obamot has still not understood anything about the diffusion of heat and, given my repeated explanations, will never understand and will believe that going to the depths of the earth will be better, with a huge balloon !!

Yet www.dlsc.ca provides proof that it works, with reliable storage, not at all precarious, but Obamot reasons only with his feelings and not scientifically !!

Also, it only remains for me to drill, tinker simple, without large balloon of 500m3 of sky-high price, for the price of the annual heating of the house to 4000 € of annual heating, much more thermal colander than my worst house !!

In fact, the easiest way is to put the house under 3 to 6 m of earth for a phase shift of 4 months which retains the summer heat for the winter, at a price that of the earthmoving with backhoe of the free earth.
It can put everything very warm at the bottom of a large well a few km deep, as in the diamond mines in South Africa, the only method that holds water according to Obamot !!
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by roy1361 » 27/11/11, 08:59

Hello,

I guess this morning Dede must have a hell of a headache after a night celebrating this:

Image

Good Sunday...
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by Christophe » 27/11/11, 10:53

Thank you Roy for the info, copied here https://www.econologie.com/forums/post217405.html#217405 and tweet.

As I have thought from the start, even in Drake, it is not 100% of the energy that is covered, so we need a supplement ... unlike what dede has been hammering at us for months! This is not a criticism of the technology used; 80% is already great but the Swiss project, with a water pad, seems to do better ...

Isn't it dede?
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the middle
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by the middle » 27/11/11, 11:22

It's simple, DD must find us a specific case, financially viable, and that works, in short, an example like in Switzerland.
:D
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dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 27/11/11, 13:28

It is frightening that you cannot see scientifically and with common sense, the cheapest simple solutions and the judges of this price are more gifted than you !!

It's so simple that everyone can do it at home with a drill, tinkering with their garden and a little imagination !!

A www.dlsc.ca it works if you forget the DHW or if you are content for your baths and showers of water at 20 ° C like me !!
If dlsc.ca were in the south of France instead of 1000m in altitude in the continental region with -20 ° C and more, it would be 100% !!

Have you seen the price of the 200 to 500m3 tank needed for a single typical house in France ???
While a few holes like a deep well are enough !!
You are completely derailed !!

In econology you are as clogged as most of the French who continue to go nuclear with 60 years of inertia directly in an inevitable Fukushima-Chernobyl disaster sooner or later since men are not foolproof in perpetuity! !

You are as clogged as the average Frenchman who collected lots of free wood from the last storm on a beach by the sea yesterday and who, when I explained to him that by burning this wood full of sea salt at home with chlorine to make dioxin, he inundated himself with dioxin, his children and everyone in the neighborhood, cursed at me, denied the risk of cancer multiplied (as in the smoke of a waste incinerator without filter), that him young he risked nothing, etc ...
So you all breathe your neighbors' dioxin, which burns anything, and the only cheap solution is to copy in simple www.dlsc.ca
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dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 27/11/11, 14:29

read in a clean web page instead of the minitel:
http://realinfos.wordpress.com/2011/11/ ... ns-mouais/
http://www.romandie.com/news/n/_Le_Prix ... 111311.asp

and in detail:
http://www.energyglobe.com/news/details ... 2/id/1823/

And we can put it almost everywhere simply and a little imagination !!
Particularly in foundations with piles of large buildings that I see everywhere in France !!
Architects do not realize that when foundations need piles at 10 or even 20m deep, this constitutes a magnificent summer heat reservoir for winter for almost nothing more, than the effort to understand it, almost and to dare !!


The Energy Globe World Award goes to Alberta / Canada, Drake Landing Solar Community - More than 40 Nations Are Celebrating at the Energy Globe World Award Ceremony in Wels, Austria

Austria / Wels - This year's Energy Globe World Award goes to Alberta / Canada for the project “Drake Landing Solar Community” represented by Doug Mc Clenahan. 52 homes of the Drake Landing Solar Community in Okotoks, Alberta are profiting from an ingenious system where heat from the summer sun its stored below the surface of the earth. In winter it is used to meet 80% of the community's entire energy needs. The project was also winner in the category “fire”.

The audience had the final word and chose the award recipient from five individual categories, who was presented with the golden Energy Globe Statue by Austrian economics minister Reinhold Mitterlehner and Energy Globe founder Wolfgang Neumann. Bright smiles, delight and enthusiastic applause accompanied the ceremony on the Wels stage. "Thank you Austria, I still can hardly believe it…" Amidst a flurry of camera flashlights Mc Clenahan displayed the 15 kilogram Energy Globe trophy. The winners of the individual category awards, who had come from many different parts of the world were overjoyed as They were participating in the Energy Globe Award ceremony in hopes of receiving awards for their great work and efforts on behalf of a better environment.

Representatives from over 40 countries, more than 1000 guests who had been invited to the ceremony, top-ranking laudatory speakers and a huge crowd of press and television representatives gathered at the Fair Grounds Conference Center in the Upper Austrian city of Wels for this year's Environmental Gala of superlatives. "All these projects represent tomorrow's solutions. This great pioneering spirit of innovation will ensure that our planet will remain a worthwhile home for our children as well", Energy Globe founder, Wolfgang Neumann, is convinced. His Energy Globe project that annually attracts participants from 100 countries and more than 1000 individual projects publically demonstrates how energy can be used in an efficient manner anywhere in the world. It shows how greater quality of life can be achieved while at the same time creating a boost for the economy.
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