Smart grids

[Pierre-Yves]

indeed, Did67, with the load shedders, we clip a point that's all, we do not optimize. With the "intelligent" grids, we add more an educational aspect and we go to a larger scale.

Avoiding the worst is indeed a laudable goal, but I still ask myself the question of meeting needs at a lower cost.

To concretize, here is where I am on the definition of the priority of an electrical device. Priority is therefore a function of:
- status (on or off)
- the estimated operating time (possibly statistical data)
- the power (or energy) absorbed
- the waiting time already carried out
- tolerance to waiting
(there are finer attributes to find)

For example, I would put a very low wait tolerance for the coffee machine (we have all its faults!), But a tolerance anyway if it can allow another task to finish.

It's still raw foundry, but I feel like I'm a little more responsible.

Okay, now we have to refine that, program, design the ad hoc educational HMI, etc.

Do you find yourself in there grelinette? (since you posed a concrete problem)

[Stephen]

I am sorry for the content of this section. Apart from a few legitimate requests for explanations, there are above all big considerations on the why of the use of this or that device, nothing that advances the Schmilblick.

As I said, I took the figures and the problem of a friend and I did not even try to look at the nature of the figures.

Hi PY,

I understand your disappointment ... but still, be a little honest! You seem to demand a certain requirement as to the answer, or do not forget that you are addressing a forum, that nobody owes you anything, that everyone is asking questions, and that the goal is to move forward ... this, if I believe the ethics of the site, while respecting a certain ecological ideology (but perhaps to be am i naive ??).

What strikes me is this sentence in your last post:
«indeed, Did67, with the load shedders, we clip a point that's all, we do not optimize. With the "intelligent" grids, we add more an educational aspect and we go to a larger scale.

Avoiding the worst is indeed a laudable goal, but I still ask myself the question of meeting needs at a lower cost.»

How can you then criticize the speakers who ask questions and claim that it is necessary to optimize when, at the same time, the simple notion of the power of a fridge is completely foreign to you?!?

You reason coldly about values ​​that seemingly have no meaning (at least not that of responsible consumption!) And you are waiting for a proposal "optimized"...

I prefer to believe that I did not understand anything in the spirit of this forum !

[Did67]

It's still raw foundry, but I feel like I'm a little more responsible.

I'm having trouble getting it! ???? !!

1) A "smart grid" is not an individual management of each person's priorities ... It is the optimization of a network. behind the idea of ​​optimizing the system: "smaller" network, reconciling consumption and production to avoid line losses, etc ...

2) I don't see how a "software" that will manage the priorities within your devices will make you more "responsible" ???? But maybe I am stupid?

a) responsibility is not having everything you want

b) it is globally consuming less or in any case consuming with less environmental impact

c) so, for me, it comes in two or three points:

- live just as well while consuming less and wonder about the "need"

- consume this "less" so as to favor renewable sources (therefore consume "renewable-compatible")

- transfer electricity consumption (mainly nuclear) to other energies: consuming locally, consuming "more bio", solar water heaters, etc ...

I do not see what an algorithm that manages the order of your consumption - and therefore differs from some of your consumption - will change from the point of view of your overall impact (the coffee maker comes before the washing machine, certainly; but that in no way reduce your consumption at the end of the year)

I would rather offer you a text-to-speech module, which, when you leave your living room, asks you the question "did you turn off all the lights?" or "have you turned off all the days before"? "or on your washing machine, the questions" is the drum full? "or" could this washing not be done at low temperature? "

But there is surely something that I do not understand. So I will leave rather than annoy you ..

[swallowtail]

good evening everyone,

as stephano and did-67 rightly point out, I actually think that the "smart grid" will allow only to consume more without blowing everything up !!!
but it will prevent me from asking the right questions:

- do I really need this electric espresso?
- wouldn't it be wise to heat the water in the washing machine and dishwasher in the sun and send it to the machines via a simple thermostatic mixer?
- do I really need this dishwasher?
- etc., etc

Personally,this simple questioning of our desires , allowed us to bring our needs less than 2500Wh / day
bringing us all the autonomous comfort and sufficient

it's here happy sobriety : "the desire is not the need"

I'm afraid that this kind of approach (smart grid) will only lead to shift consumption around the "off-peak" hours, and thus provide an opportunistic justification to the producers of nuclear electricity.

on the other hand, in isolated sites or islands, the load shedders mentioned could perhaps avoid certain situations of overconsumption, but in individual cases, manual management or common sense is largely sufficient ...

in short, the real question is it seems to me:
how to consume less, in every sense of the term
swallowtail

[elephant]

+1 with you, Swallowtail ...

.... except for the small espresso

[Did67]

Of course. This is what I also wanted to say (my washing machines and dishwashers are on solar or pellets ... etc).

Nénamoins, the "big one" of our consumption is invisible: it is the embodied energy of all the products that we consume. How many kwh of oil, this beautiful apple cultivated with fertilizer (1 kg of nitrogenous fertilizer = 3 l of oil) imported from South Africa or Chile ???

An example.

But above all, I believe that there is confusion between "offloading / deferring" our consumption and "smart grid" = intelligent network, with a view to bringing together demand and supply (in particular "renewable") at the collective level ("network") .

There are several things:

- we can have "as much happiness" by consuming less

(ex stupid: my A +++ washing machine washes as much, but consuming less - it is obviously not my happiness!)

- we can consume the same thing by having less footprint (ex: my washing machine A +++ connecting to the solar consumes less electricity for the same lavber linen according to the same program)

- with a smart grid, we can avoid over-investments by deferring certain consumption towards troughs, we can dissuade EdF from building new EPRs by consuming on peak hours of solar or wind production, we can inject locally what we consume locally to avoid online losses: installation of medium size metahnsaitsion station, distributed bin, well distributed PV panels, etc ...) ...

You have to juggle these 3 things!

[loop]

Hello everyone,

I follow your discussion from afar.
Look at this little device, it can give you some ideas.
A load shedding function is planned and I asked the designer to consider functions dedicated to the self-consumption of PV and / or wind production.
Tell me what you think .

http://www.cartelectronic.fr/content/8-serveur-wes

(thanks to the moderators for not considering this as advertising, I am simply exposing the "econological" potential by the processing of consumption data through this device)

A+

Gérald

[dirk pitt]

Hello everyone,

I follow your discussion from afar.
Look at this little device, it can give you some ideas.
A load shedding function is planned and I asked the designer to consider functions dedicated to the self-consumption of PV and / or wind production.
Tell me what you think .

http://www.cartelectronic.fr/content/8-serveur-wes

(thanks to the moderators for not considering this as advertising, I am simply exposing the "econological" potential by the processing of consumption data through this device)

A+

Gérald

very interesting
excellent even. but we are a little hungry. I have the impression that certain things remain to be developed.

[loop]

Hi Dirk (a minimum of politeness doesn't hurt you know)
So no, I was not directly involved in the development of WES, simply, when I discovered its functionalities, like you I immediately saw its potential.
I contacted the designer to inform him of the possible complementary uses for the energy measurement of a heating circuit (central, solar, etc.) but also to suggest the use of load shedding relays to trigger consumers in the case self-consumption of PV production.
The WES is still in the evolution phase for the soft part, but the main map is available as complete (it should not evolve anymore)
The TV news and the server are already working (see manual)
I had suggested to him to synthesize the remarks, so your suggestions are welcome.
I answer your mp.
A+

[Grelinette]

If I understood correctly the role of the "smart grid" is to better manage the upstream network to prevent the sum of local consumption from exceeding overall production ... (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid )

Indeed, if this is the idea, consumption remains at the same level but is smoothed over time. So the goal is not to reduce consumption but to distribute it over time.
The reduction in consumption comes only from the elimination of peak production.

In a sense this is what an individual load shedder does as explained by Did67.

The technology is different, the level of action too, but the goal is the same!

Besides, a question torments me: whatever the optimization system or algorithm, to use the example of Did67
"In a district where there are 100 houses having subscribed 9 kW each, the line which brings the electricity must support 900 kW",
it seems to me that the probability that all consumers are at the end of their contract exists, even if it is tiny.

This is an extreme case, but rightly, currently it is often the extreme cases that we manage badly or not at all and that happen from + to + frequently and cause disasters.

Simple example, the exceptional cold snaps (which are now almost annual) and which will affect not only a district or a city, but a region, even several regions at the same time, even the whole country!

Can smart grid management manage this situation?


It seems to me that there is another interesting approach to consume smarter, see less: have intelligent electrical devices that communicate with the network or between them, or both simultaneously (network / devices and devices / devices).

For example, the network reaching saturation sends the information to reduce consumption to all consumer devices that switch to eco mode. or temporarily stops if they are not priority.

Ditto, the alert info arriving by the network, the devices organize themselves locally to assign priorities.

This seems fairly simple in theory: each household appliance could have a priority index, like the energy efficiency classes (A, B, C, D, E, F, G).

However, the devices must communicate with each other, which still seems simple since it now seems that we can use the electrical network to send computer information. (http://www.01net.com/editorial/204278/a ... lectrique/)

Okay now, people will have to accept that their coffee maker or their TV has lower priority than their neighbor's bottle warmer or radio ... and that's more difficult to manage!