Yes and it would be better to know this BEFORE acquiring this type of property. Because to realize that we will have to heat them a max to have the required comfort, it is a shame. These buildings had been designed in times when fuel (generally wood in chimney fires) was very advantageous.
Another problem and not the least when we sanitize a construction to add insulation inside, is to achieve a cure worse than the disease. And this because of the formation of cold bridges (the house then functions like a battery with temperatures and hygrometry making the dew point out of control, in cycles of "favorable to unfavorable"which fluctuate throughout the daily cycle (and depending on the indoor VS outdoor temperature), and may lead to the creation of abundant condensation in certain areas => which will increase in particular in the cold season and at nightfall, throughout the night phase, a situation which will no longer be able to be absorbed during the day phase ...).
And this, especially in these old constructions (but also in concrete, by the slabs etc.) By insulating from the inside, we will not settle anything at all, and we are never really sure that we will not fall on a cascade of problems (condensation floats on the walls, then molds, or even worse, disintegration of the cement on the walls, and rising humidity levels which were stable until then). And the significant heat losses, will be done anyway, despite the insulation. So we invest a lot and possibly by bad luck in a problem node: you have to know this from the start!
I have a friend who is a bit stubborn with a house of this type ... He wants to keep his character he says, but the walls are almost covered with vines, and the learning stone is not as appetizing as that ... It is above all that he does not want to spend a round ... While it has been freezing for decades for so months (it is at an altitude of 600m ... between 4 ° C and 14 ° C indoors to live and work is "hard"). Because obviously, he doesn't want to spend on electric heating either and he only heats with the fireplace when he is expecting guests (... and more ...).
In short, it's up to everyone to set their priorities, you still have to set the right ones. Because before thinking about appearance, you have to weigh "the pros and cons". Spend 20 or 30 years in these conditions, just to have wanted to preserve a kind of "illusory dream of times gone by" (the visits are not so numerous ... even if looking after the appearance flatters the ego) for a catastrophic energy balance to the point of no longer heating, "it's so expensive"! Isn't it better to treat the insulation since it is inside that we live more than half the year and that the disease due to too much weakening of the organism also has a cost. .. And rheumatic pains are not very pleasant in old age, when we no longer have the energy to undertake major works.
Argument for external thermal insulation (ITE)
The friend in question, stingy like me, if he takes a bad turn, he should think more about basic physics, look for his sources of humidity, realize that humidity is completely inevitable without heating, even without any cold spots (basic physics course to follow already put by me on econology), and above all, it should heat the winter continuously, with the free wood that trails everywhere around my home, at my neighbors who smoke by burning in open air for days, in recycling centers, in forests, which rot for decades, in quantities far greater than my needs and which smoke entire regions in France at certain times, such as in the South East, in autumn and spring !!
Having a good understanding of the laws of physics is very useful for stingy people !!
Having a good understanding of the laws of physics is very useful for stingy people !!
0 x
-
Philippe Schutt
- Econologue expert
- posts: 1611
- Registration: 25/12/05, 18:03
- Location: Alsace
- x 33
dedeleco wrote:in interior insulation it would be 1 / 2h
so logically house, without concrete blocks, or concrete (about the day) and about 50 to 200mm of air insulation trapped immobile, given the coefficient of thermal diffusion ??
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusivit%C3%A9_thermique
Just to fix the ideas?
6cm of polystyrene + 1cm air space on 24cm solid brick walls
But the order of the materials does not modify the overall diffusivity of the wall, whereas on the comfort side, this changes a lot. Also I am not convinced of the usefulness of this notion to compare the 2 isolations.
0 x
the order of the materials does not modify the overall diffusivity of the wall
diffusivity of a heterogeneous medium and thermal inertia are two ways of describing the same physical phenomenon in fact.
Indeed the thermal inertia or delay is determined by the thermal capacity of the system on thermal losses and the diffusivity of a homogeneous medium is the same by the same physics, just inverted, ratio thermal conductivity on thermal capacity.
If we solve the diffusion equations of the complex system exactly, we will find differences, as for sensations.
We will also find several time constants, with some of the agenda for the 24cm brick, like at home.
For the regulations we forget too much this multiplicity of time constants which can make the regulations unsatisfactory sometimes.
0 x
-
Obamot
- Econologue expert
- posts: 28725
- Registration: 22/08/09, 22:38
- Location: regio genevesis
- x 5538
dedeleco wrote:The friend in question, stingy like me, if he takes a bad turn, he should think more about basic physics, look for his sources of humidity, realize that humidity is completely inevitable without heating, even without any cold spots (basic physics course to follow already put by me on econology), and above all, it should heat the winter continuously, with the free wood that trails everywhere around my home, at my neighbors who smoke by burning in open air for days, in recycling centers, in forests, which rot for decades, in quantities far greater than my needs and which smoke entire regions in France at certain times, such as in the South East, in autumn and spring !!
Having a good understanding of the laws of physics is very useful for stingy people !!
Well, yes, I tried many times to explain it to him. The worst part is that he has a partially wooded plot, and his wood is rotten because he does not use it ... hey, we are tight-fisted or we are not:
it is even with its own wood ... 
0 x
-
aerialcastor
- Grand Econologue
- posts: 865
- Registration: 10/05/09, 16:39
- x 21
Philippe Schutt wrote:
6cm of polystyrene + 1cm air space on 24cm solid brick walls
But the order of the materials does not modify the overall diffusivity of the wall, whereas on the comfort side, this changes a lot. Also I am not convinced of the usefulness of this notion to compare the 2 isolations.
High diffusivity prevents outside heat from entering the interior through the opaque walls (the walls). In this case the order of the materials is indeed of no importance.
On the other hand, for good summer comfort, it is also necessary to fight against solar gains through glazing and internal contributions (household appliances, kitchen, oven, human animals). And this is where the order of materials becomes important. If the insulation is outside there is inertia. And inertia avoids peak temperatures: we take advantage of the coolness of the night at the hottest times of the day.
In winters inertia also smoothes the temperature curve, we take advantage of the heat of the day, when the night comes. This avoids being too cold in the morning. It also allows to store solar gains.
Inertia and phase shift (or diffusivity) are not the same thing. The two are complementary.
0 x
Save a tree, eat a beaver.
It is no use to succeed in life, what it takes is to miss his death.
It is no use to succeed in life, what it takes is to miss his death.
Aerialcastor says:
These peremptory sentences show a total misunderstanding of thermal conduction, diffusion and diffusivity at the scientific level, which you understand only instinctively, by being more or less hot or cold, but without understanding anything about the mechanisms of diffusion and thermal conduction, precise, see the links to courses that I have put and that you are not trying to assimilate.
The diffusion and thermal conduction mechanisms are governed by the same heat diffusion equations, with the different constants, specific heat and thermal conductivity, varying according to the layers of the materials making up the wall.
Diffusion precedes the establishment of a stationary thermal flux, and the diffusion coefficient is the ratio of thermal conductivity to specific heat which is therefore identical to the inverse of the thermal inertia of a block of material, thermal capacity over heat losses directly related to thermal conductivity over a thickness of the material.
High diffusivity quickly brings in heat, by high conductivity and low thermal capacity of the material to be heated and therefore the heat returns quickly !!
Do not confuse diffusivity, diffusion and thermal conductivity.
What is certain is that this is very poorly taught, because of the mathematical rigor, which imposes a lot of knowledge in partial differential equations, of which we teach only simple integral forms.
Read the 2 links on wikipedia diffusivity and thermal conduction by trying to understand them instead of asserting false sentences !!
The order of the very different materials is of great importance, because if you heat the interior with high thermal capacity and high conductivity, concrete blocks or bricks, of the wall insulated by the ITE, it, with very low thermal capacity, you will have a big inertia (obvious instinctively for you), whereas if this wall is exterior with an ITI (I = interior) you practically do not heat it and have only little inertia, almost no stored heat, and therefore the effects of thermal diffusion are very different in transient (diffusion with delay) whereas the thermal losses are identical in stationary.
It is identical to putting a hot water bottle (the wall with high thermal capacity) in a bed (ITE) or outside (ITI), which shows concretely that the order has a great importance .
I hope it's clear !! like the ACC!
When Obamot's friend, he breaks the records, he lets his wood rot instead of heating with, before decay, pruning at least.
High diffusivity prevents outside heat from entering the interior through the opaque walls (the walls). In this case the order of the materials is indeed of no importance.
Inertia and phase shift (or diffusivity) are not the same thing. The two are complementary.
These peremptory sentences show a total misunderstanding of thermal conduction, diffusion and diffusivity at the scientific level, which you understand only instinctively, by being more or less hot or cold, but without understanding anything about the mechanisms of diffusion and thermal conduction, precise, see the links to courses that I have put and that you are not trying to assimilate.
The diffusion and thermal conduction mechanisms are governed by the same heat diffusion equations, with the different constants, specific heat and thermal conductivity, varying according to the layers of the materials making up the wall.
Diffusion precedes the establishment of a stationary thermal flux, and the diffusion coefficient is the ratio of thermal conductivity to specific heat which is therefore identical to the inverse of the thermal inertia of a block of material, thermal capacity over heat losses directly related to thermal conductivity over a thickness of the material.
High diffusivity quickly brings in heat, by high conductivity and low thermal capacity of the material to be heated and therefore the heat returns quickly !!
Do not confuse diffusivity, diffusion and thermal conductivity.
What is certain is that this is very poorly taught, because of the mathematical rigor, which imposes a lot of knowledge in partial differential equations, of which we teach only simple integral forms.
Read the 2 links on wikipedia diffusivity and thermal conduction by trying to understand them instead of asserting false sentences !!
The order of the very different materials is of great importance, because if you heat the interior with high thermal capacity and high conductivity, concrete blocks or bricks, of the wall insulated by the ITE, it, with very low thermal capacity, you will have a big inertia (obvious instinctively for you), whereas if this wall is exterior with an ITI (I = interior) you practically do not heat it and have only little inertia, almost no stored heat, and therefore the effects of thermal diffusion are very different in transient (diffusion with delay) whereas the thermal losses are identical in stationary.
It is identical to putting a hot water bottle (the wall with high thermal capacity) in a bed (ITE) or outside (ITI), which shows concretely that the order has a great importance .
I hope it's clear !! like the ACC!
When Obamot's friend, he breaks the records, he lets his wood rot instead of heating with, before decay, pruning at least.
0 x
little question from a boeotian,
is it possible on a house from 2001 already insulated from the inside. I ask that because I do not know what to do to turn this feeling of cold that reigns in my house, and this I noticed regardless of the temperature inside.Because paying 150 euros per month of electricity does not care about me air and all that to be cold ..............
stef
is it possible on a house from 2001 already insulated from the inside. I ask that because I do not know what to do to turn this feeling of cold that reigns in my house, and this I noticed regardless of the temperature inside.Because paying 150 euros per month of electricity does not care about me air and all that to be cold ..............
stef
0 x
-
aerialcastor
- Grand Econologue
- posts: 865
- Registration: 10/05/09, 16:39
- x 21
Oula I realize that I wrote my previous msg a little quickly.
The phase shift is proportional to the inverse of the square root of the diffusivity.
So a high diffusivity leads to a low phase shift.
Yes the ITE is still possible.
The feeling of cold may be due to poor airtightness. Maybe we should start looking there.
The phase shift is proportional to the inverse of the square root of the diffusivity.
So a high diffusivity leads to a low phase shift.
little question from a boeotian,
is it possible on a house from 2001 already insulated from the inside. I ask that because I do not know what to do to turn this feeling of cold that reigns in my house, and this I noticed regardless of the temperature inside.Because paying 150 euros per month of electricity does not care about me air and all that to be cold ..............
Yes the ITE is still possible.
The feeling of cold may be due to poor airtightness. Maybe we should start looking there.
0 x
Save a tree, eat a beaver.
It is no use to succeed in life, what it takes is to miss his death.
It is no use to succeed in life, what it takes is to miss his death.
Back to "Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ..."
Who is online ?
Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 340 guests