Okofen...It's freezing in the house :(

Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ... short thermal comfort. Insulation, wood energy, heat pumps but also electricity, gas or oil, VMC ... Help in choosing and implementation, problem solving, optimization, tips and tricks ...
Bengal77
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Registration: 17/01/22, 08:42
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Okofen...It's freezing in the house :(




by Bengal77 » 17/01/22, 09:22

Hello everyone, and best wishes.

Let me explain my situation:

I bought a property in the South 77 in August 20. Longère type of 240 square meters, exposed stone and therefore not at the top insulation. The existing heating was centered on a system of PAC + Gas in tank with water radiator system. (15 radiators in the house)
First winter: I turn on the heat pump in October (Which had to manage the heating up to 5 degrees outside), and I realize after a month of use that my electricity bill has made a gigantic leap. (600€ for this month alone....). So I switch to the gas boiler, knowing that it will also cost me an arm. We avoid overheating, and stay at an average temperature of 19.

I make an assessment at the end of winter: 3000€ of gas. In short, it is time to move towards another heating system. After much research, I decided to switch to pellets, via Okofen boiler.

The Ardente company, which manages sales in my Region, therefore sends me a local installer who, after studying the house, offers me a Pellematic PES25 boiler + 7-tonne geotextile. According to her, I should consume around 8 tonnes per year.

The installation is done in August 21, so first winter with the Okofen.

As I write to you, it is 16 in the living room...usual temperature when, outside, we are below 5 degrees. Almost all the time right now.

At the bottom of the house, all the radiators are on max, at the top we only heat the children's rooms. In the end, we will say that we heat about 180 square meters.

On December 03, the outside temperatures drop and that's when I realize that the heating does not follow inside and that the temperatures are yoyo (Between 16 and 20 at best). I therefore contact my installer to understand what to do in order to stabilize at a permanent 20 degrees. He answers me more than 2 weeks later:

"For the operation of your boiler, indeed, the boiler "produces" hot water according to the outside temperature that the sensor constantly measures, also according to the temperature you request (comfort and reduced) and finally values ​​"supposed" to be representative of your level of insulation, these are the foot of the curve and the heating curve.

To these settings, you must add the inertia of your house, which remains impossible to estimate and which is discovered by heating also depending on the outside temperature....

The inertia will correspond to the potential of your house to retain heat or not.

Example, it is 20° at 22:00 p.m. and you have programmed 18° for the night from 22:00 p.m.
It will not be 18° at 22:01 p.m. but it can take 1 hour, 2 hours or more to come down. And it all depends on how cold it is outside...
This is why for a radiator network, we put 120mm of anticipation as the basic setting.

In basic settings, with a house like yours, the foot curve is 35 and the heating curve 1.5

Then, do not make the big difference between 26° in comfort and 18° in reduced. It is necessary to avoid exceeding 3 to 4° maximum.

If you want 20° continuously, don't make lowerings, especially this big!!

Put the boiler on comfort instead of the auto position
This will already avoid yo-yoing with the temperatures.
Then, when you go to the "heating" icon, go down with the right arrow until you find "heating curve"
There you can check the foot of the curve and the heating curve (35 and 1.5).
In the "comfort limit" setting, put a value in line with the comfort temperature you have chosen.
For example 20° in comfort >> 18° in comfort limit (2° below)

Then, with each adjustment, your house takes some time to react, so you should not "if possible" change several parameters at once and change them again the next day.

After 24 hours if you do not have the 20° you are looking for, but below, you will modify the foot and the curve:

From 35 at the foot of the curve, go to 36
From 1.5 in heating curve, go to 1.6
And leave to see the result.
Note the evolutions of settings in order to have a history.

Given what you write, I think the base setting 35 and 1.5 does not allow enough hot water to be sent to the network.
This results in a ceiling of your comfort temperature, and at night when you ask for 18°, at some point the temperature necessarily drops and in the morning, the boiler pedals to raise the temperature...

Try all this, in 24 hours, change "possibly" the foot and the curve, when already, it will be settled, the programming with a lowering will be topical."


3 or 4 exchanges have followed since (we are on 17/01 and the last one dates from 21/12!), asking me to "play" with the feet of curves, slopes... in order to obtain the expected result . As you will have understood, I have never succeeded, especially since I regularly notice that the hot water flow temperature is never stable and oscillates regularly. (Currently flow temperature, set point 58 and measured 54 ; quite stable by the way since I went back to automatic mode 2 days ago)

Having had very few respondents, you can imagine that I escalated my concern to Ardante who, themselves, send me back to the installer. By dint of getting upset, I have the project manager send me 2 emails on 13/01 asking me a few questions:

"I have just looked at your boiler. Indeed the flow temperature does not reach the setpoint.
Is the 3-way valve correctly put in automatic mode and not in manual mode.
Do you have enough pressure in your networks (1.5bar).
Have you purged your radiators (we have already encountered this problem with Mr. Morin during start-up, the heating water was blocked). A simple bubble can block circulation. "

==>I answer him that I have already done many purges, and cannot understand the relationship with the fact that the starting temperature is never optimal and fluctuates regularly during the day. (This morning of 13/01; 35 on waking, 49 at the time of my email for 67 requested)
The pressure is OK(1,5).
I ask him to call me urgently, and hasn't heard back since January 13, explaining to me that his schedule is tight...the guy isn't able to contact me.

In //, the height of despair, I go to check the silo by acquired conscience... and realize that it is almost empty. Indeed, he will let me go the next day, 14/01/22.
==> How is it possible to have consumed more than 6 tons in 5 months, including 2,5 months when the boiler only heated the balloon?????
I was told +/- 8 tons / year, the house only heats to 16 degrees (bottom), and I hardly heat the top.
There really is a problem in general.
Again, if it was really hot, I would be able to understand a little more pellet consumption, but there, I was told to be quiet almost the year with my 7 tons, and I realize in the middle of winter that I have nothing.

You can imagine the complexity of having it delivered urgently, so I had fun this weekend picking up 1,5 tons of bagged pellets...very expensive...and very practical to handle and fill the geotextile with. ....:(

I don't know what your feedback is with installers/dealers and your equipment, but personally, I am extremely disappointed and not far from angry at the moment.

Do you know what recourse I have and who I can contact since Ardente and the heating engineer do nothing for me?

Thanks for reading and helping,
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dede2002
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Re: Okofen...It's freezing in the house :(




by dede2002 » 17/01/22, 12:28

Hello,

It seems that it is the house that consumes a lot, is the roof insulated?

What was the power of the gas boiler?
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sicetaitsimple
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Re: Okofen...It's freezing in the house :(




by sicetaitsimple » 17/01/22, 13:34

bengal77 wrote:I make an assessment at the end of winter: 3000€ of gas. In short, it is time to move towards another heating system. After much research, I decided to switch to pellets, via Okofen boiler.


I'm not going to help you with your settings, but there on the forum people who seem very competent in the field. Hope they see your message.

On the other hand, your 3000€ of gas for the previous season (2020/2021), when the prices were rather low, raise questions. In my opinion (you should check), it should correspond to not far from 50MWh, which is not necessarily surprising for a house of 240m2, rather poorly insulated according to you, and heating in a "comfortable" way ( aiming for 20°C the day from what I understand in your message).

At an equivalent level of comfort (assuming that your pellet boiler is working correctly), in this case it would be more around 11t of pellets that would be needed rather than the 8 that you were told.

Well, it's a bit "guesswork", you would have to look at your gas consumption for the 20/21 heating season to confirm.
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Pilpoill
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Registration: 12/11/17, 09:55
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Re: Okofen...It's freezing in the house :(




by Pilpoill » 17/01/22, 13:45

Hop hop hello, time to assimilate the initial message and I'll be back : Cheesy:

EDIT: a classic...
We sell, we install and then the customer leaves…..! : Evil: : Evil:

Is the boiler connected? Connectable? I'll save time to analyze all this!
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Christophe
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Re: Okofen...It's freezing in the house :(




by Christophe » 17/01/22, 13:59

bengal77 wrote:Hello everyone, and best wishes.

Let me explain my situation:

I bought a property in the South 77 in August 20. Longère type of 240 square meters, exposed stone and therefore not at the top insulation. The existing heating was centered on a system of PAC + Gas in tank with water radiator system. (15 radiators in the house)


Let's talk little, let's talk well, before fiddling with the settings and accusing the boiler of not working well: what did the DPE say during the purchase?

The DPE gives you an estimate of the kWh/m².year...

And so you can easily know if a 25 kW boiler is sufficient for the heating period (70% of heating consumption is over the 4 harshest winter months)...

So does it fit or not?

If that doesn't fit, there was either:

a) fraud either at the DPE (hey yes it exists)

b) poor workmanship by the Okofen installer who undersized the pellet boiler (a pellet boiler is not sized like a gas boiler)
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sicetaitsimple
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Re: Okofen...It's freezing in the house :(




by sicetaitsimple » 17/01/22, 14:02

sicetaitsimple wrote:I'm not going to help you with your settings, but there on the forum people who seem very competent in the field. Hope they see your message.


Well, there you go! a priori you are in good hands with Pilpoil!
The first problem to solve is that it heats up properly!
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Pilpoill
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Registration: 12/11/17, 09:55
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Re: Okofen...It's freezing in the house :(




by Pilpoill » 17/01/22, 14:44

sicetaitsimple wrote:
sicetaitsimple wrote:I'm not going to help you with your settings, but there on the forum people who seem very competent in the field. Hope they see your message.


Well, there you go! a priori you are in good hands with Pilpoil!
The first problem to solve is that it heats up properly!


But uh : Oops:




Bengale77, I bring clarifications or corrections to the words of your installer who may not know everything about Okofen regulation…

This is why for a radiator network, we put 120mm of anticipation as the basic setting.

The 120 minutes are only effective when it is -10°C. At Okofen it is a calculation of the regulation and not the time that you set.


In basic settings, with a house like yours, the foot curve is 35 and the heating curve 1.5
Then, do not make the big difference between 26° in comfort and 18° in reduced. It is necessary to avoid exceeding 3 to 4° maximum.
If you want 20° continuously, don't make lowerings, especially this big!!


Base and slope are so different from one house to another that it is effectively an approximation that allows almost all configurations to be warm even when it is freezing temperatures.
I know of cases with a slope ranging from less than 1 to 2, with feet ranging from 25 to 37.
For the day/night setpoint differences, especially in the event of poor insulation, a maximum of 2°C between the reduced setpoint and comfort is already a huge amount to fill and almost impossible to heat your surface in just 2 hours.


Put the boiler on comfort instead of the auto position
This will already avoid yo-yoing with the temperatures.


It does not change anything as long as the comfort/reduced limits are - during the adjustment phase - higher than the outside temperature!


Then, with each adjustment, your house takes some time to react, so you should not "if possible" change several parameters at once and change them again the next day.
After 24 hours if you do not have the 20° you are looking for, but below, you will modify the foot and the curve:
From 35 at the foot of the curve, go to 36
From 1.5 in heating curve, go to 1.6
And leave to see the result.
Note the evolutions of settings in order to have a history.
Given what you write, I think the base setting 35 and 1.5 does not allow enough hot water to be sent to the network.
This results in a ceiling of your comfort temperature, and at night when you ask for 18°, at some point the temperature necessarily drops and in the morning, the boiler pedals to raise the temperature...
Try all this, in 24 hours, change "possibly" the foot and the curve, when already, it will be settled, the programming with a lowering will be topical."


The logic is correct, it is still necessary to check that the circulator operates H24 if you want to operate in pure water law...

If the temperature setpoint calculated by the regulation is never reached and/or does not follow what is calculated throughout the day, there is a disturber preventing it, it remains to find it and that is for that I would need at least the files produced by the boiler :)
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Christophe
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Re: Okofen...It's freezing in the house :(




by Christophe » 17/01/22, 15:25

Hey guys, he'd have to answer my question first...

25 kW for 240 m2 gives grosso merdo 100W "useful" per m2...for an old natural stone building not at all insulated (or not?), can be humid, it's not huge with a delta of 20° VS...

What is the average insulation K of the walls, what total wall surface, same for the floor and the roof, what humidity?

All this will give the real thermal need for a given temperature delta... if 25 kW is not enough to rise to more than 18°C ​​for a 20°C delta (-2°C outside) then no setting will change there nothing...

So you have to start by making a small heat balance of the needs, logically it was done at least summarily with DPE during the sale...so we should have a quick idea.

He says :

exposed stone and therefore insulation not at the top


...means 0 insulation...
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Pilpoill
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Re: Okofen...It's freezing in the house :(




by Pilpoill » 17/01/22, 15:54

Christophe wrote:Hey guys, he'd have to answer my question first...

25 kW for 240 m2 gives grosso merdo 100W "useful" per m2...for an old natural stone building not at all insulated (or not?), can be humid, it's not huge with a delta of 20° VS...

What is the average insulation K of the walls, what total wall surface, same for the floor and the roof, what humidity?

All this will give the real thermal need for a given temperature delta... if 25 kW is not enough to rise to more than 18°C ​​for a 20°C delta (-2°C outside) then no setting will change there nothing...

So you have to start by making a small heat balance of the needs, logically it was done at least summarily with DPE during the sale...so we should have a quick idea.

He says :

exposed stone and therefore insulation not at the top


...means 0 insulation...


Hello Christophe, all the information will obviously be taken to understand what is wrong :)

If it is a problem of undersizing, it must work permanently which does not seem to be the case.
For the power of his green, I do not believe in his possible undersizing and I will go in this direction to try to reassure him a little all the same : Oops:
I know of an installation around Metz (climate much colder than in 77) consisting of an 18kW condensing Okofen installed in a stone house of 200 m2 (100 m2 x 2 levels) without any insulation, with simple glazing, and two non-hermetic entrance doors…
For sure the boiler operates in permanent modulation but as long as there is no negative temperature it maintains its 19 night and 20 degrees during the day as this curve proves.
(We pass on the economic side eh…)

C681815A-585D-4B4F-958B-F8CCACAFD525.jpeg
C681815A-585D-4B4F-958B-F8CCACAFD525.jpeg (427.57 KiB) Viewed 8247 times
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Christophe
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Re: Okofen...It's freezing in the house :(




by Christophe » 17/01/22, 15:59

Ok, are these curves, is it the boiler that gives them to you?

In this case I said nothing (but his DPE should still be instructive) I'll let you discuss between happy owner of Okofen then :)
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