Council opinion quote pellet boiler

[footix64]

Hello,

I am currently on a project of replacement of my boiler oil (mixed fuel oil) of + of 25 years by a pellet boiler!

currently the boiler feeds a network (with circulator) 11 radiators fonts and via a balloon exchanger also ensures the ecs (termosiphon) when it turns with electric booster

For a house of 150 M2 with insulated attic / double glazing but no insulation on the exterior walls (Toulouse briquette / crawl space / brick wall)

So I have the project to replace it with a pellet boiler. So I started to make quotes at different artisants!

At the moment I was offered 2 solutions radically different in terms of pricing and equipment and therefore I seek the help of members to help me in my research.

I propose you the 1er solutions:

A wood pellet boiler JOLLY-MEC the MEC21 with a power of 21 kw
The installer recovers on my old installation without modification no buffer balloon proposed, just a valve 3 deflecting channels for balloon charge ecs and a probe for the balloon ecs. Price of the boiler installed 8132 Euros auqel would add the price of a small silo of 400 or 700 kg (price unknown to date)

I enclose the doc of the boiler in question:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1052262013 ... directlink

What do you think about this 1er solution advantage / disadvantage could it be improved? The installer certifies that in my case it would be enough and that it would be useless to go on boilers beefier like an okofen (which he also distributes).

2nd Proposal

A wood pellet boiler CTC Ecoflex 14.6 KW with 400 Kg silo, however the installer Modifies the installation in depth: Changing the casing (diam 150) with addition of a T with cuff and moderator, Equipment of the boiler with hydrometer, thermal valve and backflow preventer, New circulator High energy efficiency,

It removes the balloon with exchanger and replaces it with a basic electric ball connected in Series on the boiler (which produces the ecs via an exchanger plate and tank 150l)
It connects me the boiler to a regulation via external probe to optimize the installation.

No buffer tank either the 150 liters of the boiler acting as a mini buffer me he said!

Supply various and varied + electric water heater + Mo + boiler with silo all for 13731 Euros

Doc ctc Ecoflex:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1052262013 ... directlink

Sorry for the quality I took a picture with the phone

What do you think of this boiler ctc and the proposed installation ??

I will probably have a quote soon from an installer Okofen I will keep you informed!

I confess that I do not really know which way to go is difficult and that is why I need your advice!

Thank you for your time!

[dedeleco]

Beware of the 21KW overkill compared to 14,5KW, because with the pellets, the mini power is 1 / 3 maxi, so that in mild weather (very common), you are too hot, and the boiler continues to start and stop.
If you are in the Toulouse region, mild climate, it is likely that 21KW is excessive.
But determine the exact value needed 90% of the time, because read on econology, all those with boiler or stove oversized, very numerous and dissatisfied with this error, in addition to others, noises, regulations.

Look at all the posts of minipoussin (18KW instead of 9KW), those on ÖkoFEN, full of advice on 200 pages, etc.

[Did67]

I do not know either!

21 kW surprises me a lot ...

15 remains high. FYI, I am heating about 200 m² in Alsace with a 15 kW that I will clamp at 12 kW after the cold wave that we knew this winter, where I found that it has never been thoroughly all day...

1) Jolly Dude, that sounds good! It's ... Italian! Especially specialized in stoves, hydro stoves, pellet insert ...

2) CTC is Swedish, a country with great experience in pellets, little known in France.

3) Okofen, like other Austrians, are the leaders in BBC home boilers, that is to say produce the machines for low or very low needs. The argument of the "big" Okofen is absolute nonsense! No doubt a sign of ignorance of the market.

4) The risk, with brands little known or new, or poorly represented in France, is to know if in case of a glitch, there will be someone at the end of a thread !!! And that's hard to guess! Must a guinea pig!

But difficult to say more.

[Philippe Schutt]

I do not really like DHW systems with plate heat exchanger because they have a number of disadvantages that can be bothersome:

1. scaling if the water is very hard
2. loss of load, so lower the maximum flow if little pressure
3. limited heat transfer
4. slow reaction rate, especially if the boiler is in standby

Some will probably be negligible except in special cases.

On the other hand, the points 3 and 4 make that your ECS will be strongly electric. From then on, as much pull at the simple +, or 100% electric.
Conversely, a simple exchange balloon requires starting the boiler just for that in summer, the ball should be large enough to limit starting. We can also consider an 2eme balloon, electric or solar.

Tubing: The addition of a tee is actually necessary but from there to change all the casing ???
The thermal valve is not needed on an electronically controlled power supply.

The Jolly-Mec solution is without external probe, the boiler is set hot enough to make the ECS, at least 65 °. Not optimal in mid-season.
Beware of the cost of the silo and the screw, it goes up quickly to 2000 € or more. By the way if already, take a silo with blower truck filling.

Finally, what is the frequency of ash emptying at minimum and maximum power?

[footix64]

Beware of the 21KW overkill compared to 14,5KW, because with the pellets, the mini power is 1 / 3 maxi, so that in mild weather (very common), you are too hot, and the boiler continues to start and stop.
If you are in the Toulouse region, mild climate, it is likely that 21KW is excessive.
But determine the exact value needed 90% of the time, because read on econology, all those with boiler or stove oversized, very numerous and dissatisfied with this error, in addition to others, noises, regulations.

Look at all the posts of minipoussin (18KW instead of 9KW), those on ÖkoFEN, full of advice on 200 pages, etc.

Actually I'm on the Toulouse region in the Tarn to be exact

How do I determine exactly the exact value needed 90% of the time? I know that in terms of consumption of fuel for a heating season the former owner returned 2000l of fuel without insulation in the attic at the time!

I do not know either!

21 kW surprises me a lot ...

15 remains high. FYI, I am heating about 200 m² in Alsace with a 15 kW that I will clamp at 12 kW after the cold wave that we knew this winter, where I found that it has never been thoroughly all day...

1) Jolly Dude, that sounds good! It's ... Italian! Especially specialized in stoves, hydro stoves, pellet insert ...

2) CTC is Swedish, a country with great experience in pellets, little known in France.

3) Okofen, like other Austrians, are the leaders in BBC home boilers, that is to say produce the machines for low or very low needs. The argument of the "big" Okofen is absolute nonsense! No doubt a sign of ignorance of the market.

4) The risk, with brands little known or new, or poorly represented in France, is to know if in case of a glitch, there will be someone at the end of a thread !!! And that's hard to guess! Must a guinea pig!

But difficult to say more.

For 21 kw I believe from the catalog that I was able to consult that in fact it is just only parcque jollymec only this power in boiler even if the installer made me a pseudo estimate based on the size of the house on 3 level, double glazing, attic isolated.

1) actually it's Italian the installer offers a range ranging from stove to insert through this famous boiler Level sav 2 there is technician brand on the region.

2) I learned a little about the ctc and modulation level it modulates only on 3 power levels which would explain the mini 150l buffer it has to "compensate" a little limited modulation. Would it really be a problem for less efficient modulation?

3) For Okofen I will contact another installer different from the 1er (who also installs) and see what he offers me this one even offers a visit of the facilities at his customers to see.

4) Jolly guy 2 technician on the region Ctc no idea!

I have a question to "possibly" overcome the overpowering of the MEC21. Could the addition of a buffer tank be a solution? I will still see with the installer if there is not less Powerful!

By cons the fact that the MEC21 has a hydro kit pre-mount a drain 80 diameter, and a tank 40kg pellet, I wonder if it would not be just a stove carenner way boiler that do you think?

I do not really like DHW systems with plate heat exchanger because they have a number of disadvantages that can be bothersome:

1. scaling if the water is very hard
2. loss of load, so lower the maximum flow if little pressure
3. limited heat transfer
4. slow reaction rate, especially if the boiler is in standby

Some will probably be negligible except in special cases.

On the other hand, the points 3 and 4 make that your ECS will be strongly electric. From then on, as much pull at the simple +, or 100% electric.
Conversely, a simple exchange balloon requires starting the boiler just for that in summer, the ball should be large enough to limit starting. We can also consider an 2eme balloon, electric or solar.

Tubing: The addition of a tee is actually necessary but from there to change all the casing ???
The thermal valve is not needed on an electronically controlled power supply.

The Jolly-Mec solution is without external probe, the boiler is set hot enough to make the ECS, at least 65 °. Not optimal in mid-season.
Beware of the cost of the silo and the screw, it goes up quickly to 2000 € or more. By the way if already, take a silo with blower truck filling.

Finally, what is the frequency of ash emptying at minimum and maximum power?

For the ecs is it really interesting to keep the balloon exchanger coupled to the pellet boiler? Is the production of hot water via the pellet boiler reliable and interesting compared to a solution 100% electric or other ?? Knowing that actually in summer and inter season no boiler lit so ECS on the electrical resistance. For the solar I can think but I have a facade facing south and the roofs are east / west (grosso / modo) so that would be interesting because a CESi is about 5500 euros d ' additional investment ??? After if it can be an alternative I am all ears!

Otherwise, would not it be just simple and profitable to turn the balloon exchanger and put a square balloon 100% electric with EDF aboard day / night?

For the tubing currently my duct is tubing in flexible from top to bottom with a "chimney sweep" tee at the outlet of the fuel oil boiler all in diameter 125. The 1st installer suggested that I put in place a 125-> 80 reduction to be hook up on the MEC21, the other wants to re-tube everything in 150 for the ctc!



qaund has the frequency of emptying of ashes I do not know anything about it!

[dedeleco]

he knows that in terms of consumption of fuel for a heating season the former owner returned 2000l fuel without insulation in the attic at the time!

then it was 2 / 3 what he would have done in the Paris region (200KWh / m2), or a little over half of what he would have done in Alsace!

What power of fuel boiler, 20KW ???
In my opinion a little prickly, with lonely attics (20 to 30% less), in addition, take half about 10 KW, 14KW rest can be excessive ?????

Look what you spent this winter pretty cold, in KWh, what T mini, how much cold weather, house structure, sunshine, windows, etc.
It must be less than before.

Because otherwise, at T luede, very usual, you will be too hot, and even with huge balloon, once hot, the boiler must stop for a long time, which often, it goes awry restarting a little time constantly.
Except to have an exceptional auxiliary heating, stove or other exceptional cold weather.

On the quotation require a maximum of precisions, like noise, T thermostat with adjustable hysteresis, rate of steps stops at T = 12 ° C outside, consumption of pellets at T = 0 ° C outside and at T = 12 ° C, sometimes aberrant , air vents adjustable to norms, chimney to norms, estimate rogue, (all errors to avoid, visible on econology, like https://www.econologie.com/forums/post224151.html to read thoroughly, and internet,) and also have before home insurance multi-risk home with defense and recourse who will pay the experts, the costs of justice, etc. if defects occur !!

[Philippe Schutt]

Jolly-Mec modulates from 2,5 to 21kw, seems to be one of the strong points of "volcano" burners, and yes, it is a stove with a boiler body. Having said that, it's pretty well built. I had done tests on an Axtro burner, it was able to keep a small embers for 1 to 2 hours to restart the fire without using the candle, so mini power almost to 0 so no balloon. In addition I had calculated that with a 200L buffer on a boiler with a minimum power of 3kw I arrived at cycles of 4h in the worst case, as Dedeleco said with a large hysteresis and external regulator to the device .

The presence of a tank will help you troubleshoot easily with bags in case of a dry outage. but beware of the safety because there is no break in the chain of pellets, and a smoldering fire could go back into the tank. Safety: a thermostat detects a rise in T ° along the screw, it turns to return the embers in the home. In case of power failure nada. Supposedly the draft of the chimney prevents the phenomenon, big doubt with an exit of 80. That's why I do not sell this brand and here too I do not know about the CTC. The ideal remains to have an area where the supply line remains empty of granules, like airlock or slide.

15kw seems to me more than enough if you consider 2000L of fuel oil and with a little insulation 11-12kw will also go.

The ECS via the boiler is reliable, yes. Question profitability, yes if you take the subscription day / night just for that, and not if you have it anyway.
A CESI of the trade is always hard to make profitable if it is just for the ECS. That said, for Toulouse, perhaps a solar heating coupled with a small hydro stove would be a cost-effective solution, especially if you plan a future pool.
Tubing. Everything is explained !

[Did67]

I have a question to "possibly" overcome the overpowering of the MEC21. Could the addition of a buffer tank be a solution? I will still see with the installer if there is not less Powerful!

Absolutely. This is the radical solution to any overkill problem. And also to a "primitive" modulation on 3 levels only. But it has its cost.

But at that moment, take a balloon with integrated DHW calorifier: you should still know that the electric kWh is 2,5 times more expensive than the "pellet" kWh ... So it's a shame, above all during heating, to do without.

[Philippe Schutt]

in fact with 2.5kw mini power there is no overkill in a big house weakly isolated.

[footix64]

Well I'm going back to the installer who offers me the MEC21!
Actually in the catalog jolly-mec did not launch that 1 only model of boiler with a unique power of 21kw!
So no other model in stock or otherwise I have to turn on the only other brand of boiler he offers to know: okofen!

Regarding the diameter 80 evacuation, I therefore mount a "chimney sweeping T" and mount a reduction to take it up on my pipe (flexible stainless steel) of diameter 125!

For ecs it would cablerais on the balloon a probe, to control the temperature of the water inside this one, by the regulation of the boiler.

It has an expansion vessel dedicated to its internal water volume (which is unknown to me) and on the other hand my installation currently has an "open" expansion vessel at the end of the circuit. higher of the installation and for him it must be transferred and replaced by a "classic" expansion vessel as close as possible to the boiler!

The fact remains that the "overpower" of this boiler leaves me perplexed!

A small additional question my DHW installation is in Thermosiphon the other installer offer me the installation of a charge pump in order to change all this is the thermosyphon really "obsolete" (because it works well)?

I ask the technical data on the Mec21 installer to see if he can provide me to show you all that!