Need insulation for advice for my future work

Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ... short thermal comfort. Insulation, wood energy, heat pumps but also electricity, gas or oil, VMC ... Help in choosing and implementation, problem solving, optimization, tips and tricks ...
bidouille23
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by bidouille23 » 13/03/12, 16:42

Plop it's simple, use the hygrothermal spreadsheet to calculate the position of the pink point, if even with a variable steam brake you still have your pink point in the walls, well you go to the vapor barrier (and in this case you uses a vmc because as its name suggests it protects against steam because it is waterproof unlike the steam brake;).)

The cob falls on its own, this is normal, it has been wet for a long time since it is a ruin and no longer sticks to bricks.

"But then if I isolate from the inside I'm going to spend money for nothing or I will still have a drinkable result? I also spoke with someone who had placed panels like that http://www.knaufinsulation.fr/fr/products/acoustiplac and who was delighted, what do you think? "

well no you will not spend your money for nothing, Obamot tell you to take your time to calculate everything well that's all.
And to make sure to have the minimum of thermal bridges, and this is valid for all new constructions or renovations.

As for your plates well it is glass wool, it is not easy to ask when you have never asked (direct bonding on the walls so degreasing for the passage of cables and no brakes or vapor barrier).
For my part I do not ask this kind of thing, I have already done it for constructors I would not do it for anyone since.

Look at what thermal bridges are and by simple logic you will find in your house how to avoid them:

example: if you have a concrete slab as the top floor of the living room and the bottom floor then the attic.
Your slab is in junction with the walls, so that if you insulate over the slab, and on the walls, you have the thickness of the slab in thermal bridge. If you have a wooden floor, no problem you slice the circumference of the wooden board so as to make the wall insulation communicate with that of the attic :) .

does that answer your questions?

type thermal bridge and choose the named pdf

derecourt.nicolas.pagesperso ...

http://herve.silve.pagesperso-orange.fr ... miques.htm


take a look at the other sites dealing with the same subject;), to better understand.

here it does not stress, but does not do anything that is all, including for your ground floor floor.
Ask yourself every time if you can connect the insulators or not, and if not how you can prevent the cold from entering by conduction in the materials.
And for the air control membrane adhesive scotch ets :) .
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by Obamot » 13/03/12, 16:48

Hack will always amaze me (and very damn your link) : Shock: )

Well, this way ... I always answer the same ... "It is not we who decide", but this damn dew point, and the strategies to follow to resolve cold bridges (not obvious when the wall is due north and that the "architect" of the time had foreseen, which an air intake in a kitchen, bathroom or utility room, which has a pantry under the window ...) that the coating is loose and that it is already wet "as is" ... So these are the coefs of materials we use and how we make the sandwich to solve the different insulation problems ...

Each renovation has this type of problem to solve, period. Then it's you who read and see ...

But in any case, putting an aesthetic choice before a good technical compromise - is not and never will be - a good argument for a builder / renovator, it can be for an architect ... (joke) but as then we come ... : Mrgreen: : Cheesy:

Anyway, let's be humble, it's not "we" who should decide ... That's the message! Afterwards it's as you want it but at least everyone is warned of the consequences of inappropriate or ill-suited choices ...

To return to the aesthetic, it is only a question of finish, everything is allowed or almost. So he is a bad guide and not an excuse, amha. When the price, all things considered, given the economy of insulation of the elements anchored in the gable walls, it should in principle be cheaper overall and for everything, and especially cheaper in pain. Except for the case mentioned by Bidouille, I would therefore opt for the insulation of the facade, and I would do that in summer, the best time to clean up these walls ... I wouldn't take that either, since your case is severe according to the pre-diagnosis you give us (we would have liked as many photos as possible, mebon.).
Last edited by Obamot the 13 / 03 / 12, 17: 08, 2 edited once.
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bidouille23
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by bidouille23 » 13/03/12, 17:05

: Mrgreen: : Mrgreen: : Mrgreen:

Not better

it's not me that decides either, and actually putting aesthetics before technical efficiency is also a choice that engages only the one who does it :), and unfortunately the one who imposes it here we have the POS which defibnis a lot of thing (type of cover, type of wall, general visual aspect in coherence with the other houses, and in the end commissions with people who commission;) following their taste we are not in the mierda what, it even asks you in some cases to put the house in the direction of the road while it is a bioclimatic house calculate to optimize the solar gains lol I had the case it's to die of laughter and of nervous breakdown then still happy that there is other person who are less stupid and who helps to put the house in the good direction before construction :) ), in belgium what is the question.

little question bricks is like stone ???
On the stone the fact of passing the high pressure washer fat to skip the protective layer which is created naturally during the drying of the stone, therefore to clean with high pressure an old granite wall comes back to make it permeable to water, for the brick what does it give especially to sanding ????
Pk if it is the same problem, the question is settled;).
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by Obamot » 13/03/12, 17:15

wi, wi, wi ... it's crazy as we understand ... : Cheesy: everything is said it seems ...

For brick and sandblasting: no comment! Let's wait for the photos! But in principle, if it is terracotta, it would be the ideal support for facade insulation, right? Menfin brief.

I add a last effective point for the cold deck of the ground floor slab: the end of the end for old constructions is still to excavate the walls on about 60cm to put a Delta belt MS, then resume insulation on bituminous plaster from the natural insulation given by topsoil. How would you hack?
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by Plop » 13/03/12, 19:52

Well, here is a photo of the facade!
Image
After sanding I generously applied a layer of water repellent and it seems to work quite well.

That I understood very well that the external insulation was the top but hey I should have thought about that before doing all my work. But I'm still not a fan of plaster ... :x

For the question about acoustiplac it was a simple question, I also do not want to use mineral wool, it was mainly a question in relation to the principle of insulation and what quality of insulation we have with this system the?

I also saw this system http://www.chanvribloc.com/Isolation%20int/Chanvribloc-isolation-interieure.html
So would I go up a wall inside with an air gap in between? What do you think?

Then to avoid thermal bridges at ground level I had to think of a dry screed, I believe that there is a system where we pour vermiculite balls which we level and then we cover everything panel, but I don't know what it's worth ...
For now I have a sand screed but hey it's a bit outdated as a system :P

If you need more photos I can provide them for you, just ask :D
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by Plop » 13/03/12, 20:03

Ah yes I forgot to answer the question concerning the urban planning regulations in Belgium.

Here for the orientation of the house we don't really have a choice, we are often aligned with the neighbor, it is sometimes very easy since we often make lots of 10a and stick the house to 5 meters from the road and behind we just make a lawn ...

Right now in urban planning, the fashion is for wood cladding, natural stone or plaster. So whoever does not have one of the 3 criteria in his construction project, he very often has a refusal for his urban planning permit ...

And on the other hand, large bay windows facing due north are authorized ....

In any case they can still make a lot of effort ....
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bidouille23
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by bidouille23 » 13/03/12, 22:29

PLop I read that in Belgium the rules are as known as in France :) and its dependent on the taste of the people present around the table and not necessarily taking into account the logic of construction, arfff bay window to the north lol. We are not spoiled, but little by little the ideas evolves, we must not get left do and talk to the right people who will give them the right detours to ultimately have what we want :) .

Impressive sanding result, and good idea for waterproofing (micro porous or not;) it will be determined if you use a steam brake or not, if waterproof then vapor barrier be careful).

for the chanvriblock look at the lambda coefficient (the y has the reverse); it is 0.07 W / m² K, I will give you the definition of an insulating product now: any product with a lambda equal to or less than 0.04 w / M² K conclusion: hemp is like hemp and lime not strictly speaking an insulator , but a "thermal corrector" which will also act as a vapor brake (so well implemented), it will allow to have a variable humidity rate depending on the season (less humid in winter and more humid in summer) contributing to a well-being of life. Personally I like hemp and lime plaster directly (on old 55 cm thick stone walls), and on brick walls I can't give too much advice for plaster, I am not at the point at all the above here the brick have not know except the alveolar (but with the lambda you will draw the conclusions which are essential of themselves :) concerning chanvribloc).

As for the dry screed it is a compromise which should be acceptable quite acceptable even without causing too much work.
I will suddenly answer the question of obamot write in very small that stings my eyes :) so it's written small;).

How you know obamot my little Swiss;) : Mrgreen: all the houses are not alike and each old building has a construction method typical of the place where it was made :) .
here with us the soil is generally beneficial so our foundations do not go down very low, like at 60 cm I no longer have a foundation on my house :) (er actually if I have giant blocks of granite :) ) little anecdote I already broke three pickaxe by making a trench to put a drain and it is not the handle that I broke but beautiful and well the tip of the pickaxe at the level of the ring which surrounds the handle, Now I call my neighbor with his flyer which wears out its serious teeth :) .

Regarding the delta Ms, I agree for concrete block but not for stone walls if unfortunately the dry wall too much the mortar will dry too and suddenly you help your wall to break, to reverse me I prefer to dig into it :) , I pour the chappe and the slab, which I replace with a slab (which can also act as a chappe depending on the materials used for the soil then) with pozzolana or perlite as gravel, so it becomes semi-insulating, the best for me is to make a lime concrete lime cement slab (like NHL5 Z) with perlite or pozzolan;), but this is valid for us because granite underneath so the slab is not a slab carrier;), it just carries us and the furniture and partitions etc.
By cons on the periphery of the slab a layer of insulation, and suddenly I have a good insulating junction between floor and wall, and a semi-detached insulated slab but which heats up like the plaster when we touch them, it reflects our own well heat (this method is valid on solid ground because in a case of crawl space it is yet another story and it is even simpler;) we make a wooden frame house floor insulated as desired :) ).

And in the case of external insulation on an old house, well ??? it all depends on the condition of the wall and its construction, if it is full of small stone it is without regret that we can make an external insulation. on the other hand there are crazy walls, yes yes, crazy guys who did that, on the house of a friend (house of 1780 I think) there are arches in solid granite cut and placed in floor yes yes the blocks are at least 500Kg each and one wonders how the craftsmen mounted it, then in this case hiding it is out of the question it is too good and for the respect of the work we must keep them visible.

So here is my opinion as you know depending on the house the opinion changes :) , each case is a separate case.
but your technique is good too obamot and I would do maybe the same thing as you with the houses around you :) .


does that suit you as an answer my dear Swiss builder :)


and you saw the hygrothermal balance well eh;), but I'm for nothing I just found the link :) .
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by Obamot » 14/03/12, 02:33

.... tssss, nothing to say. You don't even fall for the signs that you were not given ( : Cheesy: )

Apart from that the little Swiss how do you love them? Rare or blue? (ok I'm going out -> :)

For Plop, as long as he considers "The solution he is considering" as the only alternative, we will always have the impression of an adaptation of our advice and therefore of a kind of adaptation therefore a tinkering with a "global vision" and at the same time: he will probably not see the real technical issues of his problem (but all that is very possible ...). Mébon, it's just a personal opinion seen from a distance and it's very human.

Pfff, a few questions to ask yourself anyway: build a wall (even if it is a layering in terracotta or placo, so a material of significantly heavy density = conductive of heat where inevitably some losses ...) all this just to make a "insulation" by air knife is there not more efficient (?) since it will not prevent the air from circulating and therefore undesirable heat exchanges from being done without having any more means of controlling the hygrometry of this air once everything is closed? (And the whole closed with this type of wall and or plasterboard which can mold ayayay) it is not what we proposed in the sixties and that we try to solve / clean up, that? It's not the kind of approach that solves without solving, since it creates other problems further ...?

Bein if, after that, a casing of facade with cotton wool this cellulose, for example, it felt like "more complicated and more expensive ..."! Isn't it ultimately simpler and better suited ... and there for once, if you do it yourself ...) mebon, what I say, huh ... for me "Add a wall" in the final equation, it just adds a "Cold bridge cell element" in the wrong place that has not yet been resolved: rhaaaa, we are so little choz : Mrgreen:
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bidouille23
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by bidouille23 » 14/03/12, 10:14

lut

Did you see I still have half a brain even at this late hour of response not bad for a Breton :) .

: Mrgreen: in fact I no longer eat dairy products so the little Swiss living and in great shape running in the fields it suits me perfectly, like heïdi but in Switzerland : Mrgreen: : Mrgreen: : Mrgreen: ;)

well if not well I believe that it is clear the air gap hypothetically immobile and dry ben we have some here a lot, in fact almost all the houses dating from 1970 :) .
Balance sheet the air gap is a constant draft which acts as a fridge :) (say that for multi-layer insulation he says to make this air space to have good efficiency well good luck guys, you might as well throw your money out the window :) ).
I did not even respond to this idea of ​​air gap actually good reaction obamot this may be used to calm some reader, I hope in any case.

For this to really work you have to start by making the air gap then only we build the house around

: Mrgreen: : Mrgreen: : Mrgreen:

Little more for the plasterboard, with the thermal camera that we see on a plasterboard partition ???

answer, all the upright and the metal soleplate;), so mounting the insulation embedded in the uprights is nice bullshit;).

I agree with you regarding the exterior insulation, it overcomes a very large number of problems, and in addition to all the advantages that you mentioned, here is one more, in the case of a renovation or one lives, it can be done wall by wall, so we can spread out the expenses.

And doing it yourself is undoubtedly the best solution to save money.

But I am weak and seeing certain facade I cannot bring myself to hide the work of craftsmen who put their heart and their life to work
:|

this said there are not ten thousand facades like that;), and yes as said the advisers are not the payer and are only there to advise. The house Type passive low or at least low consumption should be mandatory for a long time, and the savings would be real for all households, more heating so to speak so more money to put elsewhere and a healthy well being :) .
But yes we are only human beings with all our faults and qualities :) (you just have to find the balance or tilt the scale the right way;)).
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by Obamot » 14/03/12, 15:24

woué, exact (except for Heidi and Milka, huh ... : Cheesy: )

Then after, when we realize the error of the air gap what do we do?

Holes in the brick partition and we inject polyurethane foam behind until filling all the vacuum ... Conclusion: it costs sweet ... for a liter of foam 28 theoretical liters of foam at 24 €! (in reality probably half in such conditions, since you can hardly wet with water behind a wall = result ... about 14 liters, right?) or 2 roros per 000 liters, ahahaha the beautiful "Savings", this is called "in for money"(Full teeth) ... and we still haven't solved any cold bridge problem ...

But we are "so happy" because "It's still better than before" : Mrgreen: : Cheesy:


PS: if it is the option "façade insulation which is chosen": agree to the spreading of the works if we start with the wall or the full north angle ... it goes without saying, but that is so much better saying it ..
Last edited by Obamot the 14 / 03 / 12, 15: 49, 1 edited once.
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