Optimization method of the circulator of your boiler

[Christophe]

Everything is in the title and it is there:

Improve the operation and lower the consumption of the circulator of your boiler

[Capt_Maloche]

Yeah, sure, but we lose a little comfort

that's what I do at home, it's the circulator (via the thermostat) that regulates the installation

[Colmant]

My circulator is still running a little after the burner stops in order to recover the heat from the heating element and send it to the heating circuit. If the temperature of the water heating circuit is sufficient, the electronic module switches on the domestic water circulation pump. again to recover calories.

My boiler is a Buderus installed in 1991, blue flame: soot index = 0
it's a bit expensive to buy but I'm not rich enough to buy bad quality.


What would be needed is a circulator with a better performance, mine (wilo) is a real pump

[Capt_Maloche]

My boiler is a Buderus installed in 1991, blue flame: soot index = 0
it's a bit expensive to buy but I'm not rich enough to buy bad quality.

AH? thin, I do not know this type of burner, so there is an excess of air?

with risk of CO production no?

AH, here is the system: http://www.buderus.fr/telecharger.php?F ... mmerciale/
It seems easily adaptable on a traditional burner

EH André! if you read that, what do you think?

EH, Colmant! could you make a photo of your burner or a copy of the part list?

[bolt]

My circulator is still running a little after the burner stops to recover the heat from the heater and send it to the heating circuit, ...

Hello Colmant
Theoretically, in the heating body of a boiler, the T ° must not fall below 68 ° C:
it's for its lifetime

explanation:
Whether burning gas, wood or fuel oil, combustion produces CO2, CO, unburned and especially water vapor (necessarily in gaseous form)
and this water vapor, whether it is (in combustion product) at 100 ° C, 500 ° C, 1000 ° C or higher, always has the ability to liquefy (condensation) on a cold wall
but it is found that at atmospheric pressure, the T ° of dew: T ° below which the water vapor can condense, it is on a wall below 68 ° C

as needed, to rust the steel, at the same time: oxygen and water (oxygen alone or water alone can not) (except electrolysis for water alone)
the fact of maintaining the wall of the heating body (facing the fireplace) at a T ° greater than the dew T ° simply prevents the rust from forming, and the boiler lasts very very long

in fact, it only ages during startup, the time that the wall reaches the famous 68 ° C

a guy was saying to me: my heating engineer does not understand: he has built a lot of boilers like mine, and all the others have perished. But only the boiler of the guy in question produced hot water, and this throughout the year (instead of an electric cumulus), so the focus has probably maintained its T ° above 68 ° C

Probably such a boiler would have a better efficiency, and a gas outlet in the chimney cooler if the circulator could circulate water at less than 50 ° C (see 35 ° C when it is for heated floors ) on the wall of the fireplace, but if this wall is steel, in less than two, the boiler would be sucked

All the builders of steel furnace boil the water stagnant against the fireplace, and this water does not circulate in force, even with the circulator en route: this water is circulated only by thermosiphon with another compartment, which is directly in the circulator circuit

On the other hand, there are condensing boilers, which they are probably made of another material in the place where the water vapor produced during the combustion is supposed to liquefy and give at the same time: 540 calories per gram of water (passed from vapor to liquid) and thus draw 110% boiler efficiency

What would be needed is a circulator with a better performance, mine (wilo) is a real pump

it is true, all the small circulators have a yield probably lower than 20%

and it is necessary to think that the yield is better by using the 1ère or 2ème speed instead of 3ème, because it consumes less energy

bolt

[I Citro]

Thank you Christophe for this document!

I have potassa, and it turns out that the broaching of my boiler was changed 4 or 5 years ago. The modification consisted in putting the circulator in operation 24h / 24.
So I just put the pinout servoing the circulator to the burner operation.
I took the opportunity to take some measurements with https://www.econologie.com/shop/wattmetr ... -p-20.html

My boiler is a Saunier Duval, the terminal is common to all models of the brand. For neophytes, it is the position of the rider that matters to us. Other connections may differ depending on the type of thermostat. Mine is a programmable thermostat like this one:
https://www.econologie.com/shop/thermost ... p-172.html

I am very satisfied. Some thermostats operate in 24v and are connected by three wires to the terminal block.
Here is the broaching to avoid:
And here is the recommended broaching:

Here are the consumptions recorded on my boiler Saunier Duval Thémis 223, of 1991, with chimney with a night light (it is not a model with condensation).
- Heating off, night light on, circulator off, hot water tap closed = 0,00 W
- Circulator alone = 71 W
- Circulator + burner = 88 W
- Open hot water tap = 97 W
When hot water is withdrawn it switches on the burner plus the circulator plus the hot water management.

You can see that by regulating the circulator to the burner I save 71 W of permanent consumption outside the burner's operating time and this during the heating period (boiler in "winter" mode).

[momotopo]

AH? thin, I do not know this type of burner, so there is an excess of air?

with risk of CO production no?

Hello everyone, I was already selling this type of burner in the 87 years and it was very difficult to sell. Just a reminder, all the burners work with excess air or there is a problem and then we start strongly the CO. The difference in the case of Buderus (actually at the time MAN burner) is that the power is not adjustable. With each power corresponds a kit head nozzle of combustion and reddening ceramic nozzle with recycling of gases.

Just an aside for CO, the maximum CO standard for a burner is 300 ppm. Look what's happening in the car and you'll see.

As for the savings achievable on a circulation pump, it may not be necessary to fall into total paranoia. I do not mind that the pumps have a derisory performance but we must not forget that it is the circulating water that cools the pump (we speak well submersible rotor pumps huh ) therefore the heat recovery produced by the pump motor is largely recovered by the heating circuit, which somewhat limits the impact of power consumption.

On the other hand, we must not forget that cutting the circulator according to the burner can create heat trains generating a certain discomfort (often acceptable) but especially a massive influx of cold water in the body Boiler every time. It's great for changing the boiler very quickly. This will be a very good thing for energy savings because a very modern condensing boiler can save up to 40% on a little old installation and in this case there will be no question of cutting the circulation pump because often (there I speak of gas equipment at the top, of course for fuel is more complicated) the burner stops almost no longer during the heating period by modulating very strongly its march between 15 and 100% of its power.

like this one http://www.thema-sa.be/remeha.htm

sold in France by De Dietrich unless I made a mistake.

[bolt]

I do not mind that the pumps have a derisory performance but we must not forget that it is the circulating water that cools the pump (we speak well submersible rotor pumps huh ) therefore the heat recovery produced by the pump motor is largely recovered by the heating circuit, which somewhat limits the impact of power consumption.

there is little power taken by a circulator

but this power is taken at the price of the electric kw
if the efficiency of a circulator is 25%, there is 75% of the electrical energy that is recovered as heat in the water circuit (assuming that the rotor is flooded and in communication with the circuit water and that the stator also transmits its heat to the circuit)

As long as the electric kwh is more expensive than the kwh oil, gas or wood, it is better to optimize the efficiency of the circulator

if one day the electric kwh becomes cheaper, then it will be more profitable (not counting the investment) to install tens or hundreds of circulators following each other: their heating due to their poor yields would be enough to heat circuit water then cheaper than other energies (beware of noise )

bolt

[momotopo]

This does not detract from what I said earlier. In any case, it is not a question of comparing the different possible energies, but of trying to limit the electrical losses of a device you can not do without, except for thermosiphon installation.

But I still remember that if you equip yourself today with a state-of-the-art circulator, the yields have still slightly progressed lowering the gross consumption which is in watts and not in kilowatts (fortunately)
If you take for example a Grundfos brand circulator type AlphaPro 25-40, the always optimized consumption will vary from 6 to 25 watts maximum, with an average of 15 watts. So I want to run old zinzins but they do not talk about saving energy otherwise I laugh.
However, we must not ignore the possible consequences that may occur in the case of a steel boiler for example, as you explain perfectly in a previous post.

But I realize that, as often, in heating, the majority of my contemporaries is still the 403 diesel. I have some experience in this field and I can tell you that the French fleet of boilers is very old, to say the least.

So now, wanting to install a heat pump on the roof of a dilapidated boiler also makes me laugh. Pitmix can do it, he is a refrigeration technician and he will be able to help you in case, but if you do not come to your house with an invoice between your teeth, you will be served. So little that there is a draw with filling of the installation to do for a gas leak of a material not too well installed and hop half a year of consumption through the window.

While if you invest in a boiler upscale, it will not cost you more and it will be less complicated for the future.

But everyone sees noon at his door

[Woodcutter]

[...] But I realize that, as often, in heating, the majority of my contemporaries is still the 403 diesel. I have some experience in this field and I can tell you that the French fleet of boilers is very old, to say the least. [...]

The problem may be that the boiler manufacturers want to sell Mercedes S400 CDI to replace 403 diesel ... Is it really necessary?

PITMIX, in its approach (as I understand it) wants to use, in addition to its 403 diesl, a small electric car and that's it ...