Trials, tests and performances of thin thermo-reflective insulators

[paotop]

for those who can not read .....

(you have to press "next" at the bottom of the page to read the "following" pages and thus read the study to the end ... )

here is the end of the last page:

After a reminder of the principles of insulation, it is shown, from full-scale experiments, that thin insulators are very far from being equivalent to 200 mm of glass wool under "normal" living conditions. .



The analysis carried out on the previous page shows that the aforementioned equivalence, notified by the manufacturers and validated by experiments under the observation of bailiffs, is valid only under conditions that are not encountered, in general, in a dwelling. Indeed to reproduce in housing, the conditions of these experiments, it would be necessary for example:

- in winter, that the walls, floors and ceilings of the attic are all covered with thin insulation leaving the apparent reflective surface (without masking by paneling, plasterboard, wallpaper ..), with use of radiant heating (to Apart from the Hall of Mirrors inhabited by Louis XIV, few dwellings have this characteristic!)

- in summer, the reflective surface of the thin insulation placed under the roof receives directly the rays of the sun (in general, this is not the case either, as long as the tiles remain in place, even in summer !)



With a real application of attic insulation, the present site shows that the thin insulators have a very weak power of insulation, substantially equivalent to their own thickness (a few centimeters) of conventional insulation (glass wool, rockwool, expanded polystyrene ...).



Do not make my mistake which was not to have understood (before laying thin insulation) that the equivalence of thin insulation with 200 mm of glass wool is not at all applicable to "normal" conditions of dwelling. This study allowed me to understand and correct this error. I subsequently, inexpensively and with adequate insulation, deposited the thin insulation and replaced it with glass wool (other products with the same coefficient of thermal conductivity would have had the same effect).



Should we believe the results of this site or other advertisements much more elaborate?

Only you will have the answer if you decide to exercise your critical mind ...

otherwise, I can also put the address of the pages one by one

[elephant]

and 24 euros sqm, I call it scam!

[Targol]

and 24 euros sqm, I call it scam!

+1

Moreover, even at half price it would be scam too.
In fact, the only interest of this type of insulation is to use them for what they were originally intended for (aerospace).
If you do not have a rocket or space station , you can use them to insulate a van or a garage door (basically, insulation of any materials TIGHT like sheet metal or plastic), but for the roof or the walls of a house, it is to be avoided.

[bolton069]

Hello,

According to what I learned, the problems of thin insulators are:

- No certified R: only one equivalence promised the hand on the heart by the manufacturer in relation to "x cm of conventional insulation"; unfortunately what is omitted is that this equivalence is valid only for the heat losses by radiation which only represent + -5% of the heat losses of a house.

- Opinion more than mitigated by the official bodies. (CSTB, ... I'll have to find the link: here you go.)

a / the test:
http://www.cstb.fr/app/atec/fichiers/pdf/GS20-U/AU040048.PDF)

The process does not satisfy the requirements
new work and the usual requirements for
rehabilitation, in addition to other processes
insulation in accordance with the Technical File.

(Well, it's not a full-fledged insulation then?)

b / The note
http://www.cstb.fr/app/atec/atec-cstb/pdf/GS20_note.pdf

ABSTRACT
Thin reflective products must like all building products be used
wisely.
Their intrinsic thermal performance is very low compared to the requirements
current thermal conditions (5 at 20 times lower than the thermal performance required for
new buildings heated)

...

However the total thermal performance
remains well below regulatory levels. In addition the realization of air knives
actually unventilated and non-communicating (no slot more than 0,5 mm
in practice is very difficult.

...

An irrelevant use or poor implementation conditions may
lead to disorders (eg poor ventilation of timber frames or frames
houses).



c / Another
http://www.cstb.fr/frame.asp?URL=/app/atec/atec-cstb/

the thin reflective products have particular thermal and processing characteristics which should be well known to avoid serious disappointments.



d / The website ideasmaison often quoted:

see the conclusion:

Some advertisements state that thin insulation is "equivalent to 20cm of glass wool".
In reality for use in the eaves, the value obtained even in the case of a perfect pose does not exceed 3 cm (according to the results of the commission responsible for formulating the technical advice)!

...

A neat pose is difficult to obtain and leads to an overall thickness of about 5 cm, which is ultimately not so thin.

There it is downright

Then: common sense: aluminum is a good reflector, but it's mostly an excellent conductor.

These insulators are also often referred to as being used in space. According to my information it would be true, but what the manufacturers forget that these spacecraft are surrounded by an infinity of m³ of the best insulation that is: the vacuum.

Finally: one wonders why these products are so pushed by roofers, an expensive product (good% margin) and so fast to ask anyway: a good stapler and a few minutes, must generate a lot of margins, and if the manufacturer says it is that it isolates well, there is not to ask questions my good lady.

Ah I forgot the pat on the back to put the customer in confidence.

[Targol]

Thank you bolton069 for all these searches.

It confirms what I said, but when it is the CSTB that says it, it's still more credible.

The most amazing thing is that even after such notices from the official certification body of materials, manufacturers have the right to continue to make such dishonest false advertising.

"equivalent to 20cm of standard insulation"ahhh yeah, I'm there, it's not at the thermal level, it's at the level of protection against µ waves that the xymoxes send us through space

Well, if not, I ask myself a question, since there are sheets of aluminum in it, what does it give with the electromagnetic waves?
The mobile phone, the Wi-Fi, it goes through in your opinion?

[Christophe]

Recovery from post! Comments on the link and results of the 1er message.

In any case reported the price of thin insulators reported r obtained is not at all favorable to thin layers.

Beware this little r is not the Thermal Resistance R which is much lower! The report is based on conventional insulation data: about 6.4 times! r = 6.4 * R I think the author should have called this r differently (eg, but ...)

Thin insulation:

1: 24 € / m², r = 6.7 where € / m².r = 3.58
2: 20 € / m², r = 5.9 where € / m².r = 3.38
3: 5 € / m², r = 4.9 where € / m².r = 1.02

Expanded polystyrene:
4: thickness 4 cm, 2,7 € / m², r = 6,6 where € / m².r = 0.41. R = 1

Glass wool
5: thickness 4,5 cm, 1,7 € / m², r = 7,0 where € / m².r = 0.24. R = 1.125

The thin insulation is therefore at equivalent efficiency and in the best case 2.5 times more expensive than a conventional insulation and in the worst case 15 times more expensive !!

Calculations in classical thermal resistance are available here: https://www.econologie.com/forums/sylvactis- ... t8944.html

[Capt_Maloche]

YEP

moreover the Resistances given are with a blade of air, otherwise the values ​​are quite weak in reality

this product finds its place under attic undeveloped

[Christophe]

Attic undeveloped? So much to put a real big insulator then no? Or maybe the 2 (especially that the thin insulation does not vapor barrier?)

Otherwise here is a very good docs on the thin insulators found here https://www.econologie.com/forums/isoler-des ... t8971.html (see 1er aerialcastor message)

INITIAL THERMAL PERFORMANCE OF REFLECTIVE THIN-PRODUCTS by CSEC (Belgian equivalent of CSTB)

[LOGIC12]

hello: Personally, I isolated the old house of my parents with 3 cm of styrodur on the wall, between brackets and plywood of 8 mm screwed on top. (3cm is, of course, not to lose too much space in rooms already not very large) I could have 2 cm, it exists, but I would have been bothered for cleats).

And above all, I lowered the ceiling that was 2,80 m 2,40, and I took the opportunity to isolate between the old ceiling and the new 8 cm LV.
I made a recess for the windows that were high.

And the house is completely unrecognizable from the point of view of heating.

A good cast iron radiator which "rowed" in a room is getting too hot now, I had to reduce the flow to compensate a bit. I also put a tablet on it to reduce convection.

Of course, nowadays in new house 10 cm of insulation in the walls, it is the minimum. But when one can not put as much thickness, it remains interesting to isolate, even with a lesser thickness (the styrodur is more efficient than the expanded polystyrene and the LV or the LR;

So even weak insulation is far from useless.
I heard a heating engineer say "2 or 3 cm, it is useless", so there, we can say that he knows nothing. And when we only put 2 or 3 cm, it means that we cannot reasonably do better, but it is far from useless.

Even a simple DEPRON 6 mm is not neutral when you do not want or can not do a big job. And the big advantage is that it cuts the cold of the wall.

Avoid cold walls which quickly absorb the calories produced by heating to send them outside .... This is why "easy-to-maintain" tiling should be avoided outside the kitchen and the bathroom. bath.

And also, do not neglect the importance of curtains to windows. For the moment, I only have single glazing (I'm waiting for the double), and I have two thin curtains superimposed (sewn together) placed on the rods on the casement of the window, another thin curtain on a rod fixed in the wall and close enough to the wall, and another curtain on thicker rod for the night ....
I think it's far from useless.

In a girl's studio that had a corridor without a door, to close this corridor without losing space with a door, I put a transom and I placed a curtain on a rod very close to the transom to limit the passage of the air. And the curtain (double fabric) closed, we felt a real difference in temperature behind the curtain when there was heating, so a real energy saving. The studio was heated with a radiator oil bath)
Reducing the volume to heat, also saves money. And that, we do not think about it often. It may be good to have removable partitions if it becomes too expensive to heat. Thus one would heat only the minimum necessary.

[Christophe]

Another report on the "performance" of thin insulation: Performance of Thin Opaque Reflective Products Used in Building Envelopes which will complete the other study already in the downloads of the site: https://www.econologie.com/etude-techniq ... -4176.html
and the corresponding summary article: https://www.econologie.com/les-isolants- ... -4177.html

The conclusion is identical: even with 2 air (theoretically waterproof) blades it is largely insufficient as insulation alone, so you need a supplement:

The effective thermal resistances of the thin reflective products (calculated according to the methods applied in Europe to all buildings) are, in the usual cases, between
0,4 and 0,55 m²K / W with associated air blades.

These values ​​do not meet the regulatory levels applied in nine. As a result, these products must be used as isolation complements.