No heating in the attic?

[Coati84]

Hello,

I'm offering this thread to see if I'm right - or if I'm crazy - not to put a heating system in my attic.

The technical data are as follows:
- house built in 1962 in PERTUIS in Vaucluse,
- surface area of ​​106 m² on the ground with an attic development project with a surface area of ​​approximately 60 m² (see development project attached),
- concrete block walls with briquettes with a total thickness of 33 cm,
- annual gas consumption of 20 kWh, i.e. a cost of € 600 with an ELM LEBLANC boiler of 1 kW (EGALIS model ref. GVB150 - 23HN),
- no interior insulation on the walls,
- 8 cast iron radiators on the ground floor,
- heating regulation in winter with a set point set at 19 ° C during the day and 17.5 ° C at night.

The final decisions on my renovation project are as follows:
- insulation of the attic ceilings by seasoned boxes with 20 to 25 cm of insulation such as HD rock wool, wood fiber or cellulose wadding fixed directly on the purlins with installation of a ventilated partition at the ridge,
- exterior insulation of the entire north facade of the house leading to the exterior with the DIFFUTHERM type system from the PAVATEX company,
- replacement of all current single-glazed windows with 4-16-4 double glazed larch wood windows with argon gas and VIR,
- interior insulation of the south wall of the garage overlooking the north wall of one of the ground floor bedrooms,
- choice to postpone the external insulation of the 3 other facades of my house later for budgetary reasons.

Is it realistic to consider this solution without heating upstairs?

My thinking is the following: I don't want to spend 1 euro on the interior insulation of the walls of my house since the exterior insulation is much better for keeping the thermal inertia inside the house [this exterior insulation total that can be programmed in 5 years]. I firmly believe that when I put in this overall exterior insulation, I will not need an upstairs heating system. After carrying out the conversion work in the attic during the summer of 2010, I leave myself 1 or 2 seasons to decide if I should invest in a wood stove to install near the stairwell. A flue exists and I could always purchase this stove later. What do you think ?

Is it a good idea to reinforce the thermal inertia of the building by putting earthen coating on interior walls and solid brick partitions in the attic? Is this a selling point for suppliers of natural products or does it bring added value in terms of inertia? Can I limit myself to classic soundproof partitions (BA13 + HD rock wool insulation) in the attic? Should I do a thermal and energy study of my TH-CE type project or not? Does this type of study qualify for a tax credit?

My architect suggests that I provide some special outlets for the installation of radiant electric heaters in case ... but that does not suit me too much.

Thank you for your help and advice.

https://www.econologie.info/share/partag ... M0rYxQ.pdf

[Woodcutter]

[...]
The final decisions on my renovation project are as follows:
- insulation of the attic ceilings by seasoned boxes with 20 to 25 cm of insulation such as HD rock wool, wood fiber or cellulose wadding fixed directly on the purlins with installation of a ventilated partition at the ridge,
- exterior insulation of the entire north facade of the house leading to the exterior with the DIFFUTHERM type system from the PAVATEX company,
- replacement of all current single-glazed windows with 4-16-4 double glazed larch wood windows with argon gas and VIR,
- interior insulation of the south wall of the garage opening onto the north wall of one of the bedrooms on the ground floor, [...]

OK with all your explanations, your choices are good!
But knowing Pertuis (I lived 7 years in Gargas), I think you should reinforce the phase shift in the roof, so go through boxes a little higher (30 cm), or close the top of the roof with panels high density wood fiber rainscreen, which will allow you to recover up to 3 hours of phase shift.

[...] Is it realistic to consider this solution without heating upstairs?

Yes, but not by limiting yourself to 20 cm for insulation, that's not enough ...

[...] After carrying out the work of fitting out the roof spaces during the summer of 2010, I leave myself 1 or 2 seasons to decide if I should invest in a wood stove to be installed near the stairwell. A flue exists and I could always purchase this stove later. What do you think ?

This is the right way to do it: first isolate, try "live" and correct if necessary (which I don't think is necessary ...)

[...]Is it a good idea to reinforce the thermal inertia of the building by putting earthen coating on interior walls and solid brick partitions in the attic? Is this a selling point for suppliers of natural products or does it bring added value in terms of inertia?

Argument certainly, but not that, it is also very effective in terms of rapid regulation of humidity variations in the house.

[...] Can I limit myself to classic soundproof partitions (BA13 + HD rock wool insulation) in the attic?

No, not for inertia ... And even for the phonic, go rather on Fermacell than on BA13.

[...] Should I do a thermal and energy study of my TH-CE type project or not? Does this type of study qualify for a tax credit?

?? in your case, a thermal study would only be justified for the Eco-PTZ, to go through the “global improvement” box to obtain € 30 without doing a bunch of 000 jobs.
For the CI, I do not really see what it does in there ...

[Coati84]

Thank you Lumberjack for these comments.

I count well :
- have seasoned caissons made with a thickness of 25 to 30 cm of celluose wadding insulation with a density of approximately 70 kg / m3. This insulation seems to have the best price / performance ratio and I will see with my future carpenter / roofer the difference in cost,
- study the installation of HD wood fiber panels to cover these rafters.

Isn't it a big deal to have a significant difference between the thermal resistance of the ceiling with an R of around 6 m².K / W and uninsulated walls made of bare concrete blocks?
What do you recommend to me for the interior covering of these walls - composed of bare concrete blocks - not insulated upstairs?
Pragmatically, I will not install any special electrical outlets for radiators or provide for an extension of the heating network upstairs. If in 1 or 2 years, I still have to heat the floor, will the installation of a wood stove or a mass stove be sufficient?
Concerning the realization of the partitions upstairs, do you recommend solid bricks or Fermacell + insulating plates [of the ISONAT + type]? What is the best solution in economic terms and / or from an inertia point of view?
What do you recommend as an exterior insulation system for the north facade? Do you have good feedback from the DIFFUTHERM type system from PAVATEX? I have read an overall price of 155 € / m² ... and that seems very expensive to me.

Finally, I intend to carry out a thermal study of the TH-CE type to benefit from an eco-loan only for the Eco-PTZ in the amount of € 30 with the “global improvement” box. Indeed, I will carry out 000 bouquets of work not being sure that the only insulation of the north facade will make me pass in the realization of 2 bouquets.

Thank you in advance for your answers.

[Woodcutter]

[...]I count well :
- have seasoned caissons made with a thickness of 25 to 30 cm of celluose wadding insulation with a density of approximately 70 kg / m3. This insulation seems to have the best price / performance ratio and I will see with my future carpenter / roofer the difference in cost,

70 kg / m3 is too much!
You will lose insulating power against the cold, the lambda of the bulk cotton wool is more or less constant (but not quite) between 30 and 60-65 kg / m3 but above it drops.
You can limit yourself to 55 kg / m3.

[...] - study the installation of HD wood fiber panels to cover these rafters.

Useless if you plan boxes of 30 cm. May be of interest if you limit yourself to 25cm

[...] Is it not serious to have a significant difference between the thermal resistance of the ceiling with an R of approximately 6 m².K / W and uninsulated walls made up of bare concrete blocks?

It's not homogeneous but you remove the biggest source of losses, and the point that heats up the most in summer.

[...] What do you recommend to me as an interior covering of these walls - composed of bare concrete blocks - not insulated upstairs?

? I don't understand the real meaning of your question ...

[...] If in 1 or 2 years, I still have to heat the floor, will the installation of a wood stove or a mass stove be sufficient?

Yes, very widely. A stove may be sufficient to completely heat a well-insulated house.

[...] Concerning the realization of the partitions on the floor, do you advise me the solid bricks or the plates of Fermacell + insulator [of type ISONAT +]? What is the best solution in economic terms and / or from an inertia point of view?

Economy: I don't know!
Inertia: brick.
If the partitions must also serve to cut the noise between two rooms, I would prefer the double fermacell solution and insulation between the two

[...] What do you recommend as an exterior insulation system for the north facade? Do you have good feedback from the DIFFUTHERM type system from PAVATEX? I have read an overall price set of 155 € / m² ... and that seems very expensive to me.

Insulation from the outside is always expensive, regardless of the system used (even EPS!).
No return from Diffutherm.

[...] Finally, I intend to carry out a thermal study of the TH-CE type to benefit from an eco-loan only for the Eco-PTZ of an amount of 30 000 € with the box "global improvement". Indeed, I will carry out 2 bouquets of work not being sure that the only insulation of the north facade will make me pass in the realization of 3 bouquets.

So that's what I was saying.
For insulation, if there is not at least 50% of the external surface treated, that does not fit into the package of work.

[Coati84]

I am going back to the question where I misspoke.

The interior covering of my ground floor walls is made of plasterboard bricks and wallpaper.

The walls located in the attic are made of bare concrete blocks and have no interior coating. My question is the following :
Knowing that I do not insulate the walls located in the attic, what do you recommend as an interior covering allowing to benefit from a thermal correction and / or a slightly improved inertia?
Paneling, lime-hemp plaster, plasterboard brick ...

Thank you in advance for an answer to this question that torments me.

[Woodcutter]

[...] Knowing that I do not insulate the walls located in the attic, what do you recommend as an interior covering allowing to benefit from a thermal correction and / or a slightly improved inertia?
Paneling, lime-hemp plaster, plasterboard brick ... [...]

If you want to improve inertia, there are not 36 solutions: lime-hemp plaster!
A plaster with a high organic load will be able to produce a lambda of around 0.15 and a density of 350 to 400 kg / m3.

A 6 to 9 cm layer will therefore allow you to insulate (a little bit) by adding a thermal resistance of 0.4 to 0.6 to the existing one (R = 0.2 for a concrete block of 20cm).
Neither a standard brick nor wood will allow you the same.

[Coati84]

Hello,

The TH-C-EX type thermal study makes it possible to obtain an eco-loan at zero rate "overall energy performance" for an amount of € 30 if the future consumption of our house is less than 000 kWh / m². an [= 135 x 150]. Do you have any idea of ​​the amount of this type of study?

My current gas consumption is 194 kWh / m².year [= 20 / 600].

Do you think that the following renovations (windows with larch joinery - double glazing 4-16-4 mm - argon gas - VIR - solar factor of 0.65, seasoned boxes including 28 cm of cellulose wadding insulation for insulation? of the roof from the outside, ventilated partition at the ridge, humidity sensitive ventilation B, interior insulation of the south facade of the garage) will allow me to reach this energy threshold of 135 kWh / m².year?
I wish to postpone the exterior insulation of the facades over time and therefore cannot benefit from the maximum amount of the eco-loan.

Is there free software to thermally model the impact of my work?

Thank you in advance for your answers.

[Coati84]

Here are my new questions:

1] what do you recommend as sound insulation for the floor of the 1st floor? How to do not to lose the inertia of this floor?
The floor will be reinforced with a compression slab ep. 8 cm with connectors to be sealed in the joists: the material will be self-leveling concrete with glue binding it to the joists - slabs floor. This solution was recommended by a concrete engineer who had come to visit the house before the purchase.
Do you have any technical recommendations concerning the mass + spring system to set up?

2] in order to reinforce the inertia and to have a good acoustic comfort, the partitions in the attic will be made with fermacell plates on metal frames with a wood fiber - hemp insulation type ISONAT + ep. 40 mm. Can I save money by installing plasterboard partitions? What do you think ?

3] what material do you recommend for the stairwell? For aesthetic and volume reasons, my wife and I would rather be interested in a wooden staircase. Does it really play that much on inertia?

4] I already have a pre-existing flue near the stairwell. For budgetary reasons and common sense, I would like to spend the winter 2010-2011 without an upstairs heating system. My reflection is as follows: if I am really cold upstairs, I will install a wood stove or a mass stove the following winter. Could this backup heater be sufficient? What do you think ?

5] the insulation between the 22 cm thick purlins with the ceiling fixed by wooden frames under the purlins and installation of cellulose wadding after laying the tiles. The total thickness of the cellulose wadding will be 28 cm and a high vapor permeability (HPV) underlayment screen will close these "boxes", battens and counter battens will be installed and the tiles re-installed.
What do you think ? What are the best brands of cellulose wadding? Am I right to save a dense wood fiber rainscreen? How to ensure that the desired density - around 55 kg / m3 - will be obtained? According to my calculations, the thermal capacity of this cellulose wadding would be 27 Wh / m3.K, i.e. a phase shift of 9.5 hours for a thickness of 28 cm. Is it OK ?

I have a quote in my possession where the item "insulation above the ceiling of my attic" for my 150 m² roof comes out at € 28 excl. Tax or € 000 excl. Tax / m².
This estimate includes the removal of tiles (tiles + battens), the installation of a plasterboard on metal frames fixed below the purlins, the supply and installation of a vapor barrier, the supply and installation of 30 cm of loose cellulose wadding, the supply and installation of a rain screen in dense wood fiber and the laying of tiles.
This quote seems a little expensive to me. What do you think ?

6] I have a lot of trouble defining the insulation or thermal correction of the walls:
- the ground floor walls are made of 20 cm concrete blocks, a 6 cm air gap and a 5 cm plaster brick,
- the upstairs walls are made of bare concrete blocks of 20 cm.

I hesitate between these 2 solutions:
6.a] on the interior side, installation of an air gap and plasterboard bricks upstairs then plaster and paint plaster and installation of a loose insulation by spillage - expanded cork granules - on all the facades between the concrete block and the plasterboard bricks.
6.b] on the interior side, installation of metal frames with wood fiber insulation - ISONAT + type hemp with a density of 55 kg / m3 upstairs on all facades.
Do you recommend the installation of terracotta tiles instead of the plasterboard bricks?

7] Will the planned work (strong insulation of the roof, replacement of all windows, installation of 8 programmable thermostatic valves) allow me to benefit from an eco-loan at zero rate of € 30?

8] From a fiscal point of view, the heavy renovation that I am considering is similar to a new building because of the heightening [tax instruction of August 11, 2006] ... and a VAT of 19.6%. Can I benefit from a 5.5% VAT on, for example, the complete change of the 8 windows on the ground floor or other workstations?

See you later.

[Woodcutter]

No time now, sorry, will look at this later. See you

[Woodcutter]

Hello,

The TH-C-EX type thermal study makes it possible to obtain an eco-loan at zero rate "overall energy performance" for an amount of € 30 if the future consumption of our house is less than 000 kWh / m². an [= 135 x 150]. Do you have any idea of ​​the amount of this type of study?

Real cost, no, but a vague idea after some discussions: it can amount to more than 2000 €.

My current gas consumption is 194 kWh / m².year [= 20 / 600].

Do you think that the following renovations (windows with larch joinery - double glazing 4-16-4 mm - argon gas - VIR - solar factor of 0.65, seasoned boxes including 28 cm of cellulose wadding insulation for insulation? of the roof from the outside, ventilated partition at the ridge, humidity sensitive ventilation B, interior insulation of the south facade of the garage) will allow me to reach this energy threshold of 135 kWh / m².year?

Yes, without a doubt if you start from a situation where the existing insulation is very weak or zero.

I wish to postpone the exterior insulation of the facades over time and therefore cannot benefit from the maximum amount of the eco-loan.

Is there free software to thermally model the impact of my work?

Thank you in advance for your answers.

Surely ... but I don't know them!