No heating in the attic?

Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ... short thermal comfort. Insulation, wood energy, heat pumps but also electricity, gas or oil, VMC ... Help in choosing and implementation, problem solving, optimization, tips and tricks ...
Coati84
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by Coati84 » 26/08/10, 09:55

Hello,

After a few weeks of absence, while the thermal and structural studies have been carefully finalized, I am in the final phase of drafting my DCE by my architect. The important technical prescriptions appear on the detailed plans and this almost finalized DCE is not so bad!

Here are some outstanding questions:
- regarding electricity, are there any risks in installing ceiling lights on the 1st floor ceiling insulated with cellulose wadding (boxes, vapor retarder, wadding, etc.)? If not, what are the precautions to be taken? Should I finally turn to wall lights?
- concerning my new heating pipes, what is the most economical solution: copper or multi-layer materials? Technically, isn't there a risk of strong expansion of pipes made of multi-layer materials? Do we have sufficient experience feedback? I met 2 reputable plumbers who have 2 contrary opinions.
- I will proceed with the craftsmen consultations next month. I have adopted an assumption of remuneration of hourly labor of 42.5 € TTC per person or 340 € TTC per person per day. Is it correct ?

Thank you in advance for your answers.
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Obamot
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by Obamot » 26/08/10, 19:26

Hello,

In short, your objective is: save energy. Introductory remark: a) do not remove anything that already exists, if it is not essential. b) Why "bay windows with brick partition" that are worth a fortune? Instead of choosing facade insulation everywhere, which will save you money on interior design. c) Do not take it badly, but I have the impression that a certain indecision could have led some partner to "protect" themselves?

That being said, there are probably points which have already been answered, but I think that it is not useless to approach the problem in a "global" way, which will give some clues on points which would eventually not have not been discussed.

Let's try to be pragmatic in the sequencing of the different phases.

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100) Foundation side insulation + junction with facade insulation + slab

Light excavation on the front wall side, descending a little towards the foundations, to isolate the "cold bridge" present by dissipating heat from the ground floor slab, to the foundations, (via the facade and below the level of the topsoil, possibly with cork, up to the connection with the "exterior insulation" of the front wall.

Do not skimp on the insulation between the floor covering and the "ground floor" slab. Besides the junction between the facade wall and the roof, it is your main "cold bridge". Have you thought about insulating from below via the "technical vacuum"? It is essential and that would be ideal!

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110) Façade insulation: "reservations"
Provide "reservations" for a water supply (watering, cleaning) one / s external electrical socket / s (lighting, security installation, bell, even telephone socket, and possibly for a karcher, etc.) and of course switches and any type of connection related to a passive house: external temperature probe, thermometer or weather system etc ... (ask Christophe, he has a lot of things in the shop, he knows that perfectly ...).

Coati84 wrote:2] A concrete formwork surrounds the conduit of my future and possible wood stove only in the currently unfinished attic. The duct does not exist on the ground floor but there is an opening in the attic floor. My question is as follows: should I now take care of any possible diversions from this existing conduit upstairs to the upstairs bedrooms? Or is the radiation from this vertical duct sufficient to heat the 4 upstairs bedrooms which will have the doors always open during the day?

... you will see in use ... What is important, however, is to think of an exchanger (recovery of the calories present in the fumes, air circulation ...) to avoid heating for free ... the air of your municipality .... !!! :-)

Coati84 wrote:6] Do you recommend replacing my single-flow CMV with a class A or class B water-regulated single-flow CMV? Is Class A not sufficient in my renovation program?

It can be calculated. The more you isolate, the more you have to ventilate. Also think about an exchanger to avoid taking calories outside the building.

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120) Preparation of facade insulation, installation of frames: doors / s + windows
It is obviously necessary to provide the proper structure to receive the facade insulation as well as the door / s and window frames.

Coati84 wrote:I also intend to put in place on the "south" facade aluminum windows with brick partition breaking thermal bridges. What do you think ?
Alu, and all metal, to ban.

Your windows, patio doors and other bay windows will necessarily have to be in wooden boxes extending beyond the thickness of the facade insulation, this is the most delicate point to resolve in this case Amha.

Coati84 wrote:7] I intend to replace all my single glazed windows with mixed Scots pine-alu - VIR - argon blade - 4/16/4 - solar factor of 0.65 - Acotherm Th10 label - Uw <1.6 W / m2.K - sealing A3E3V2 - solar factor of 0.65. Is it a good choice ? Do you know of installers or manufacturers in departments 13 or 84 offering an interesting quality / price ratio?

Absolutely avoid aluminum. We changed to DV / argon all PVC, insulation question is great, but do not take white, otherwise hello maintenance ... The ideal would be PVC with an exterior wood veneer, but I don't know if it exists?

================================================

130) Facade insulation
Coati84 wrote:2] 4] Is it in my interest to carry out the partial elevation of the "east" facade of the upper storey in "concrete block + air gap filled with cork granules + plasterboard brick" with a total thickness of 31 cm or in 31 cm aerated concrete? For this last option and for a density of 400 kg / m3, the thermal resistance would be 2.2 m².K / W. What do you think of the "air gap filled with cork granules" solution?

5] After an authorization from the consultant architect of my city, I will carry out an external insulation of all the north facade with a partial reference on the facade


Warning: the wooden cladding requires maintenance every five or even ten years ... If this point has not been specified to you, I sincerely advise you to change your dairy ... (probably enough to break the contract between you?) .

What can a double partition be used for? ("concrete block + air gap filled with cork granules") since we can be satisfied with an external insulation in cellulose wadding? Why not a simple cellulose wadding facade insulation (boxed or not depending on the budget) - and this all around the house (and not only to the north) with a "rain-proof cladding guaranteed without maintenance" (plaster + / coating?) on the outside to protect the wadding + ad hoc vapor barrier on the masonry side)?

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140) roofing
How is the junction: facade wall / roof (possible "cold bridge"?).

Coati84 wrote:3] Is it really useful to add a dense wood fiber rain screen to cover roof insulation "boxes" which already include 28 cm of cellulose wadding with a density of 55 kg / m3? Isn't a high vapor permeability (HPV) roofing screen at 2.50 € / m² sufficient and much less expensive?

The rain screen and the vapor barrier do not have the same function.

Wiki wrote:The vapor barrier \ windproof
The inside face of the insulation (warm side) must be provided with an airtight film which fulfills two functions: that of vapor barrier and that of windproof. This waterproof film therefore works in both directions:
* prevent hot air laden with water vapor from entering the insulation and causing condensation therein;
* prevent the wind from infiltrating, through the insulation, into the heated space.


The rain shield, if we are talking about the same thing, will prevent any water infiltration from reaching the insulation, the configuration should be seen on site, but in principle we sometimes use a sort of bituminous paper. If you are absolutely certain that water cannot enter the caissons ...

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150) Indoor electrical installation
Coati84 wrote:Here are some outstanding questions:
- regarding electricity, are there any risks in installing ceiling lights on the 1st floor ceiling insulated with cellulose wadding (boxes, vapor retarder, wadding, etc.)? If not, what are the precautions to be taken? Should I finally turn to wall lights?

That's a good question, I hadn't thought of it! If I had any doubts on this point, I would supply the ceiling lights with low voltage and put LEDs! The transformer is obviously not in the ceiling and a good fuse in case it blows to cut a very possible "fire" propagation towards the LED lamps.

================================================

160) Electric heating
Of course, you should NEVER think about heating with electricity. Very poor performance, no matter what they put in these radiators to "accumulate heat" ... The loss is in terms of convection (electricity => heat) storage is a shame. And there is no "electric central heating" (but I believe you already know that)

================================================

170) Heating pipes
Coati84 wrote:- concerning my new heating pipes, what is the most economical solution: copper or multi-layer materials?

Copper, if you have the budget.

Now, if your pipes pass through the slab, it is better to provide insulation so as not to diffuse into the slab (no contact with the concrete is better, but if you have very good facade insulation, it is not important).

And of course not to pass these pipes in partitions giving on the facades, preferably.

================================================

180) Interior fittings, insulation and / or sound correction?
Coati84 wrote:1] Regarding the sound insulation of the floor, can I ensure correct acoustic correction with a laminate covering at 25 € / m² of the "Style strong" type from EGGER comprising a Silenzio underlay directly placed on my thick compression slab? . 8 cm? Do I really have to go through a mass - spring system: pavatex pavapor ep. 22 mm + 18 mm OSB board + hemp felt?

Doesn't know (I'm not in France), but to help see a little more clearly, we must distinguish:
- sound insulation stricto sensus is a heavy material of high density: concrete, glass, etc.
- the acoustic correctors are no longer there to provide a pleasant space to live there with a sound absorption coefficient through various structural elements (the cheapest: the egg cartons lining the walls of the cellars of budding musicians, up to the sophisticated profiles of recording studios) and by ad hoc wall plasters.
- damping materials and other phonic correctors, intended to avoid / reduce impact noise.

The most important thing, if you want to find your way around, is that you have to compare the different materials not with decibel coefs but in dB weighted (dB-A, dB-B ... see under wikipedia).

Coati84 wrote:2] I am fixed on the constructive choice of partitions: gypsum boards (fermacell) ep. 13 mm screwed on a metal frame and ISONAT insulation + thickness. 50 mm at 55 kg / m3. Can I replace ISONAT + with high density rock wool for cost reasons?

... how many weighted dB? Obviously, with such a low density, it is not an "insulator" but a "sound corrector".

Save money by putting something heavy and not pseudo-insulating materials ... And invest in facade insulation everywhere, interior fittings can wait ...

================================================

190) Interior finishes
Coati84 wrote:"Is it a good idea to reinforce the thermal inertia of the building by putting earth plaster on interior walls and solid brick partitions in the attic? Is this a selling point of natural product suppliers or is it? what does this bring an added value in terms of inertia? "


A thermal inertia could possibly be obtained by heavy elements, of high density (but in any case not with an earth rendering ...) Like Lumberjack, this type of rendering is more related to questions of control of the hygrometry.

RTDC
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by Coati84 » 03/11/10, 11:36

Hello,

Thank you Obamot.

I launched the calls for tenders for the 7 lots of my renovation project at the end of September 2010 and await the answers by mid-November 2010:
- Lot 1 - Earthworks - structural work,
- Lot 2 - Framework - cover,
- Lot 3 - Lining - insulation - interior carpentry,
- Lot 4 - Electricity,
- Lot 5 - Plumbing - sanitary - heating,
- Lot 6 - Exterior carpentry,
- Lot 7 - Ironwork.
- Lot 8 - Tiles.

I left more than a month to the craftsmen consulted knowing that the start of the work is scheduled for March 2011.

With the only concern - but important - to limit costs, here are the few questions I have during this consultation phase:

1] the resumption of the porch underpinning requires the installation of a galvanized steel structure of H shape in 200 mm x 200 mm. The structure of the pergola of the "south" facade which is the extension of this sub-work does not take up any load and has no mechanical function. For cost issues, is it worthwhile to set up an H-shaped structure in 100 mm x 100 mm? Is it cheaper to set up a 100mm x 100mm hollow square shaped structure? What is the most economical metallic coating (galvanization or not, only expoxy paint ...)?

2] what types of sanitary ware have a very good price / quality ratio? I have little knowledge in this area.
In terms of quality, is ceramic absolutely necessary? Is there a need to choose the basins, washbasins, sinks, bathtubs from a range of a brand such as JACOB DELAFON, ALLIA, PORCHER ...? Do you have feedback on sanitary facilities chosen at BRICOMAN, IKEA, LEROY-MERLIN or on the Internet (eg: AQUA DIRECT)?

3] my future mason advises me to put wood wool instead of rock wool for the exterior insulation between my "north" wall and my wood cladding. Technically, it does not seem obvious to me and economically it seems more expensive. I am focused on the choice of wood cladding: Scots pine autoclave class 4 brown pigmentation during autoclave. Is there a better economic choice? I plan to put cork bases 200 mm high at the bottom of the external insulation. Is there something more economical?

4] what is the cheapest wood covering that can be installed in a bathroom?

5] for economic reasons, I only plaster the surfaces created. Are there any tips or feedback to share to have a homogeneous overall house plaster color?

6] the installation by myself on the 1st floor of a laminated parquet with clip-on installation - with cork underlay - is it a good technical-economic compromise?

7] I intend to install gutter gutters in steel coated with a zinc-aluminum alloy. Is there a better technical-economic choice?

Thank you in advance for your contributions.
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by Coati84 » 12/11/10, 23:52

Hello,

Regarding sanitary equipment, I continue my research with a current preference for LAPEYRE, IKEA and the 2 websites: www.aquadirect.fr ou www.masalledebain.com.

Today I just met a mason from the Alpes de Hautes Provence (04) who made me think about 3 points of my project:
1] placement of a styrodur plate th. 5 cm above the joist and slab floor and under the distribution slab th. 6 cm. This styrofoam plate would have an acoustic function and would limit sound transmission between the 1st floor and the ground floor.
2] installation of an under-roof screen with reflective aluminum face. Does this reflective face really bring a plus? Or are the thickness of the air gap of 6 cm and the ventilation tiles sufficient without this aluminum artifice?
3] in order to limit costs, installation of the interior walls with metal rail with 48 mm rock wool insulation and BA13 plates fixed in staggered rows with respect to the metal rails. This is a priori quite rigid and will allow me more easily to put in place a finishing plaster and the 2 coats of TOLLENS brand paint of the "OXYGEN MAT" type.

What do you think of these 3 points and especially of the BA13 choice compared to the fermacell plate?

Thank you in advance for your contributions.
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by Coati84 » 25/11/10, 11:37

Hello,

I received almost all the offers from the craftsmen concerning the different lots of the extension project ... and it was a disaster: the sum of the quotes was twice the initial budget. The architect did not do his real estimation work and only drew some very nice plans!

After a first abatement given the investment made in the design of this project, I am thinking about the rest and would like to have advice from you on the approach to be taken.

1] analyze what is expensive in the current quotes.

2] refine a more reasonable need (for example: creation of a laundry room, 3 bedrooms and addition of a bathroom) with a constraint which is not to touch the structural work. In the optimized project, there will be no partial elevation, removal of the porch, creation of an aim on stay, installation of a metal H-pole, complete decurling, insulation from the outside of the crawls and the north facade ...

3] make a very precise estimate of the work of the optimized project based on the quotes in my possession and actually make a design at objective cost.

4] redo the work plans. This is where the shoe pinches. I think I know exactly where I am going: creation of a laundry room in the garage, creation of 3 bedrooms upstairs, installation of a pre-industrial helical staircase, strong insulation from creepers without decurling, porch intact. .
Taking advantage of all the experience acquired concerning the design of the initial project, I intend to take over the plans of the architect of the initial project. For this, I will go to simplified drawings and use layers on unaffected parts to establish my new plans. I do not necessarily intend to return to my architect to draw up the plans for the simplified project. Can I draw up an act amending the building permit and all the new plans by myself? Is there a risk of intellectual property of the architect?
Do you advise me to go back and see my architect - whom I have already paid € 8 including VAT - to draw up the plans for the modified project? Do you think that for around 200 - 1 € TTC this architect can simplify the plans of the initial project (ground plans, sectional plans, electrical plans) so that I can re-consult the craftsmen with whom I want to work?

Thank you in advance for your contributions and sharing of experience in this delicate period.
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by dedeleco » 25/11/10, 15:19

You should read with great care the contract with your architect that you have not used to the end.
For me, 9 years ago, the contract provided for an estimate of 10% of the work, if you have this, you can ask him for an explanation, but he will answer you that it is you, not him, more than 3 months, that you have changed everything, etc. .. but in a few months the quotes are not multiplied by 2 !!
Otherwise have you asked several different companies ?? to compare.
A valuable architect has power over companies with multiple houses to make quotes realistic, and his work if well done is of value with justified pay.
sometimes with little we improve the presentation of a house like yours which is not ugly.
for insulation, the same, it all depends on how much you are currently spending on heating.

Finally, a building permit must be executed for the exterior part as planned, otherwise non-compliance and possible problems.
If your area is greater than 150m2, you need an architect to modify it and pay (check at the town hall).
Otherwise if you do not change the visible exterior, then no permit is needed, and the permit project is canceled.
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by Coati84 » 25/11/10, 16:22

Thank you DEDELECO for your answer.

I have read my contract carefully and cannot turn against my architect. It is true that I invested a lot in the technical part of the DCE ... quite simply because the architect was not interested in that. On the other hand, he gave me superb plans for the facade and interior fittings. I paid 6% of the motant for the work for the filing of the building permit, the studies and the drafting of the DCE ... which is all in all reasonable. Finally, I consulted 2 or 3 companies per work package. This architect is very valuable for concepts and not for cost control. In addition, he is soon retired and no longer performs the "site monitoring" phase for 4-5 years.

I will take the time to analyze what is expensive in the current quotes and refine my need in a more reasonable way.

In the end, I will necessarily come back to my architect in December. The best solution seems, that after having refined my needs, my architect who made all the plans offers me to modify them at a low cost. In addition, there must necessarily be a modification of the building permit. The shell will no longer be modified but I will have to create 3 skylights on the roof. The total SHON will be greater than 170 m².

In the end, if I understand correctly, do I have to go back to my architect?

Thank you in advance for your contributions.
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by dedeleco » 25/11/10, 16:51

I will have to create 3 skylights on the roof
The shell will no longer be modified

if the only exterior modification are the skylights, in an area not classified as a historic monument, we must be able to ask the town hall for a simple prior declaration for modification (I do not have the right term see in town hall) of less than 20m2 as much as I reminds me.
Attached the text to my town hall.
For hairy it must be even easier.
Find out by asking lots of questions everywhere.
Your architect for 6% of the work should have explained it to you ???
I find it a bit strong that you pay 6% for work that you will never do.
You should have asked the prices here and there in the neighborhood before the architect.
At home and around, roof 20000 € windows to change re 20000 €, exterior insulation re ditto etc.
Look at the price of m2 and the surface and make the product: the m2 is too often between 100 and 300 € and more !!
YOUR RIGHTS AND PROCEDURES: Housing

Prior declaration of work
Definition
The prior declaration is an administrative document which gives the administration the means to verify that a construction project complies with the town planning rules in force.

This document is mandatory for minor work.


Work concerned

A prior declaration must be filed before building any:
new construction creating a gross floor area (SHOB) greater than 2m² and less than or equal to 20m²,
*
extension of a building resulting in the creation of a SHOB greater than 2m² and less than or equal to 20m²,
* transformation of more than 10m² of SHOB into net floor space (SHON),
* modification of the exterior appearance of a building,
* change of destination of a building (for example transformation of a commercial premises into residential premises) even when this does not involve any work.

Constitution of the file

The request for a prior declaration can be established by means of the cerfa form n ° 13404 * 01 or carried out directly at the town hall of the municipality where the land is located.

This request must be supplemented by a file containing in particular the following information (the list of documents to be provided is exhaustively listed on the notice requesting a prior declaration):
the location and area of ​​the land,
the nature of the works or the change of destination envisaged, and if applicable the SHON of the proposed buildings, as well as their destination.

The request for prior declaration and the accompanying file must be sent in duplicate. An additional copy may be requested, in particular when the building is located within the protection perimeter of a historic monument.
Display in town hall
The request for a prior declaration is displayed at the town hall within 15 days of its submission and remains posted for the duration of the investigation of the file.

Filing of the file
The complete file (request for prior declaration and documents to provide) must be submitted directly to the town hall where the land is located or sent by registered letter with acknowledgment of receipt.

The town hall issues a receipt with a registration number which mentions the date on which the work can begin.
Deadline for investigating the case
The town hall has a period of 1 month to:
investigate the file if it is complete,
or claim the missing documents, by registered letter with acknowledgment of receipt, if it is incomplete. In this case, the person concerned has 3 months to complete his file.
Administration response

When the administration responds favorably to the prior declaration request, it sends a letter by registered letter with acknowledgment of receipt.

If the town hall opposes the project or imposes special requirements, or minor adaptation that must then be respected, it makes a reasoned response, which it sends by registered letter with acknowledgment of receipt.

The administration's decision may also not give rise to the issuance of a written document at the end of the investigation period.

This indicates, in principle, that it does not oppose the project as described in the prior declaration.

The interested party still has an interest in asking the town hall for a certificate attesting to his absence of opposition to the realization of the project.

Period of validity of the prior declaration

As of December 20, 2008, the period of validity of the prior declaration goes from 2 to 3 years. This 1-year extension is implemented until the end of 2010, it applies to prior declarations valid on December 20, 2008.

The work must begin within this timeframe upon obtaining the prior declaration.

Once the work has started, it should not be interrupted for more than a year.

They can be staggered provided that each interruption is less than one year and that the work carried out from one year to the next is sufficiently large and significant.

If these deadlines are not respected, the prior declaration is in principle no longer valid.

Extension of the prior declaration

If the work cannot be started within 2 years or if the authorization holder plans to interrupt the site for more than 1 year, he can ask to extend his prior declaration by 1 year. This same period may be increased by 1 year when the prior declaration has already been the subject of an extension request before the date of December 20, 2008.

This request must be made 2 months before the expiry of the validity period of the prior declaration.

For more information, the services to contact:
Town hall
Departmental directorate in charge of territories and the sea (DDT or DDTM), ex-DDE, ex-DDEA, ex-DDAM, ex-DDAF
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by Coati84 » 25/11/10, 19:45

Thank you again dedeleco for these details.

Regarding the building permit, after an important debriefing with the architect, I am moving towards its upcoming cancellation.

Regarding the rest, as you suggest, I am moving towards the filing of a preliminary declaration of work.
In addition, it is quite possible that the SHON of the optimized project is 165 - 170 m².
2 solutions are presented to me:
1] I make my own plans knowing exactly what I want (layer from the plans of the initial project + simplification)
2] I have his plans carried out by my architect who always has very good ideas for planning ... and this for the lowest possible cost. This architect is going to retire and I could perhaps finalize this final phase with his partner who looks very good to me.

What do you recommend ?

See you later.
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by dedeleco » 25/11/10, 21:54

It all depends on your possibilities in terms of time, technical capacities, the complexity of your simplified project, your ability to monitor the work well by seeing the mistakes of the companies.

In my case, even with an architect with a full mission of 12% of the work, the architect (2 in fact, the father and the very young DPLG graduate son !!) could not avoid big mistakes (me being 900Km !!) and that I did not see in time either, too rarely on site and afterwards when clearly visible, the architect got annoyed with his errors, ordered worse fixes, then started to lie, and after 7 years of trial, I won !!
Also my experience shows the ease of having errors by anyone, which pose a problem afterwards and therefore getting as much information as possible at the start in order to have as much knowledge as possible is very useful.
If the essential is interior, the architect is not essential.
Beware of technical errors on the structural work, roof leak with Velux, resistance of beams, rainwater flow, etc.,
However, pay close attention to ten-year business insurance with originals on the dates of the work, if errors you are guaranteed by them, which saved me, because the insurances especially that of the architect, paid full price !!
Also, make a written acceptance report with each company starting point of these insurances, which send you for a walk without these minutes !!
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