But is it or the ceiling low, suddenly?
at home the ceilings are in some rooms at 2m10 and at 1m90 at the cellar ...
[/ HS]
Floor insulation room with low ceiling?
Hello
Since you are attacking the ground, take advantage of it to lay a heated floor. My house is designed like yours and I regret not having done it. Nothing better than a soil at 25 degrees. Tigger did it for 2000 €. When calculating for walls in the Paris region the abbacs give-7 degrees for the winter so for the mountain it is much less than -10 degrees.
Since you are attacking the ground, take advantage of it to lay a heated floor. My house is designed like yours and I regret not having done it. Nothing better than a soil at 25 degrees. Tigger did it for 2000 €. When calculating for walls in the Paris region the abbacs give-7 degrees for the winter so for the mountain it is much less than -10 degrees.
0 x
Outside it can go down to -20 ° and even less .......
there are wooden shelves in the crawl space, and as I'm going to break some of the slab (in another place) to make a wooden structure instead, it's better not to condense it!
With cold uninsulated walls and bare earth? in this crawl space, it's going to be extremely very very difficult to avoid condensation hot air even a bit moist coming from above by the opening !!!!
Almost impossible !!
So think about the dew point and curves indicated !!!!
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_de_ros%C3%A9e
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Dewpoint-RH.svg
0 x
As there is a cellar buried next to the crawl space and this cellar is temperate, I will see to blowing "lukewarm" air from this cellar to the crawl space.
I will think about this problem of condensation but I do not worry too much.
Regarding the insulation on the slab, I find myself today with 2M60 mini under ceiling.
The slab is irregular with a difference of about 5 CM.
I think to catch the level with sand, then to lay a polyane then of the ctbs, then the insulation, then re ctbs but in 2 crossed layers and parquet floating to finish.
If you have other topics or remarks, I'm interested.
Thank you
I will think about this problem of condensation but I do not worry too much.
Regarding the insulation on the slab, I find myself today with 2M60 mini under ceiling.
The slab is irregular with a difference of about 5 CM.
I think to catch the level with sand, then to lay a polyane then of the ctbs, then the insulation, then re ctbs but in 2 crossed layers and parquet floating to finish.
If you have other topics or remarks, I'm interested.
Thank you
0 x
this winery is temperate
leave me perplexed, because the moisture of the earth must evaporate and can condense at cold points.
Watch your actual situation, and humidity, qIt can be very variable depending on the weather (cold or rain) and the drainage of the earth.
Beware, it's a coward and read the basics on econology or elsewhere and the course on dew point assimilating it well !!
Some do not fare!
The crawl spaces are very often wet, the case of mine and I do not care because I will not live there and there is no wood, which would be rotten!
If possible instead of sand you can put more insulation in thick places and less sand that is not so insulating ??
0 x
I compared the t ° the 20, 21 and 22, outside, in the crawl space and in the cellar. T ° measured in the evening but they are constant during the day.
Day ........................ 20 / 01 ..... 21 / 01 .... 22 / 01
T ° ext ....................... -8 ° ......... -9 ° ......... -9 °
Sanitary space t ........ 2 ° .......... 2 ° ........... 1 °
T ° cave .................... 14 ° ........ 13 ° ......... 13 °
The cellar is 2M20 high 10M long and 5M wide
The crawl space is the same area but 1M high on average (1M80 at an inaccessible place and 20 CM at the mini.
LaT ° of the cellar is constant (no aeration, shelves in healthy wood and no report of humidity).
I think that by 2 or 3 days the T ° will go negative in the crawlspace due to the large vents.
The house is built with sloping rock and no trace of moisture from the ground in the cellar or crawl space.
Here the climate is dry and the soil is extremely permeable (Vercors)
To keep an acceptable T ° in this crawl space:
Can I decrease the size of the vents?
Make openings between the cellar and the crawl space?
To protect the wood that will be above the crawl space, I think to isolate it from moisture with a polyane, enough?
For the top of the slab, and after more accurate measurements, on one side I will ask 3 cm of extruded polystyrene to catch up with the level and complete with sand following the idea of dedeleco.
then 2X6 cm of extruded polystyrene in crossed plates and ctbs to finish.
I will now take a look at the side of the chimney inserts with back door but that's another subject.
Goods.
Day ........................ 20 / 01 ..... 21 / 01 .... 22 / 01
T ° ext ....................... -8 ° ......... -9 ° ......... -9 °
Sanitary space t ........ 2 ° .......... 2 ° ........... 1 °
T ° cave .................... 14 ° ........ 13 ° ......... 13 °
The cellar is 2M20 high 10M long and 5M wide
The crawl space is the same area but 1M high on average (1M80 at an inaccessible place and 20 CM at the mini.
LaT ° of the cellar is constant (no aeration, shelves in healthy wood and no report of humidity).
I think that by 2 or 3 days the T ° will go negative in the crawlspace due to the large vents.
The house is built with sloping rock and no trace of moisture from the ground in the cellar or crawl space.
Here the climate is dry and the soil is extremely permeable (Vercors)
To keep an acceptable T ° in this crawl space:
Can I decrease the size of the vents?
Make openings between the cellar and the crawl space?
To protect the wood that will be above the crawl space, I think to isolate it from moisture with a polyane, enough?
For the top of the slab, and after more accurate measurements, on one side I will ask 3 cm of extruded polystyrene to catch up with the level and complete with sand following the idea of dedeleco.
then 2X6 cm of extruded polystyrene in crossed plates and ctbs to finish.
I will now take a look at the side of the chimney inserts with back door but that's another subject.
Goods.
0 x
It is not easy to guess the problems in advance.
first info:
important because to assess the humidity must be known, the soil is limestone I think, with caves and the water table to what depth and what flow of water ??
If the water goes to great depth, without a bowl with clay to store it in the surroundings (which happens in limestone regions like causses), the soil is not very humid.
Plus with -8 ° C outside the air becomes very dry as soon as it is heated a little, even at zero degrees.
On the other hand the 13 cellar at 14 ° C is at this temperature for it to be right?
Either as in a cave underground at the average annual temperature of 13 ° C ???? I doubt because on a year between winter and summer, we expect a lower temperature 5 ° C average 6m underground, that in a cave ?????
In the Paris region in the basement half buried, I have 6 8 ° C and 0 ° C outside !!
Either the cellar is heated by the poorly insulated floor of the well-heated house ????
Even for a cellar in the Paris region, I find its temperature well raised, for the Vercors, very cold.
So for a coherent answer you have to know why.
The cellar is with bare soil, limestone rock, I think ??
Care must be taken that dry air at 13 ° C, with soil that brings back moisture can condense this low humidity to 13 ° C on cold surfaces at zero or below.
In fact what is the temperature of the cellar floor ???
A few cm in it must be much lower than 13 ° C ??
In this case, this colder soil, even a little damp, releases only a little moisture into this warmer air, because the cold moist air on heating becomes dry.
In warmer weather the warmer soil can release much more moisture. All these are only practical variations on the dew point phenomenon.
See the dew point curves and if the land is wet in spring or summer with melting snow ??
It takes 13 ° C less than 40% moisture to not condense to zero degrees! So if the earth has a little moisture coming from the autumn or wet periods, which is likely, there will be condensation in the cold crawl space. !!
Highly reduce the ventilation of the crawlspace (at least in very cold weather, while keeping them warmer by air if necessary to ventilate) will allow to have the crawl space much warmer and thus not to have condensation by connecting it at the cellar which with the same soil has no moisture at 13 ° C.
But in hot and humid weather outside, you have to be sure that the cellar and the crawl space is not wetter, and if not be able to increase its aeration at the melting of the snows and with the rains ??
I think that under these conditions when watching, there must not be too many problems.
Finally a polyane wire of good quality, blocks the potential wet lifts from under your slab, paying attention to the junction on the periphery.
In any case, it works for slabs on clay without crawlspace.
But if the floor and the polyane film on it, are colder under the insulation (a certainty), the air of your room, if wet (rain or hot sauna baths) can condense on this cold surface and prisoner s' accumulate in the long run, then end up wetting your floor, a cowherd to consider, which can be decreased by providing a flow on the sides of the condensation water and very little air can slip under the insulation.
But it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to avoid condensation as soon as there are very different temperatures in a home.
In France the humidity is almost always above 50 to 60%!
So I give my thoughts of common sense.
first info:
Here the climate is dry and the soil is extremely permeable (Vercors)
important because to assess the humidity must be known, the soil is limestone I think, with caves and the water table to what depth and what flow of water ??
If the water goes to great depth, without a bowl with clay to store it in the surroundings (which happens in limestone regions like causses), the soil is not very humid.
Plus with -8 ° C outside the air becomes very dry as soon as it is heated a little, even at zero degrees.
On the other hand the 13 cellar at 14 ° C is at this temperature for it to be right?
Either as in a cave underground at the average annual temperature of 13 ° C ???? I doubt because on a year between winter and summer, we expect a lower temperature 5 ° C average 6m underground, that in a cave ?????
In the Paris region in the basement half buried, I have 6 8 ° C and 0 ° C outside !!
Either the cellar is heated by the poorly insulated floor of the well-heated house ????
Even for a cellar in the Paris region, I find its temperature well raised, for the Vercors, very cold.
So for a coherent answer you have to know why.
The cellar is with bare soil, limestone rock, I think ??
Care must be taken that dry air at 13 ° C, with soil that brings back moisture can condense this low humidity to 13 ° C on cold surfaces at zero or below.
In fact what is the temperature of the cellar floor ???
A few cm in it must be much lower than 13 ° C ??
In this case, this colder soil, even a little damp, releases only a little moisture into this warmer air, because the cold moist air on heating becomes dry.
In warmer weather the warmer soil can release much more moisture. All these are only practical variations on the dew point phenomenon.
See the dew point curves and if the land is wet in spring or summer with melting snow ??
It takes 13 ° C less than 40% moisture to not condense to zero degrees! So if the earth has a little moisture coming from the autumn or wet periods, which is likely, there will be condensation in the cold crawl space. !!
Highly reduce the ventilation of the crawlspace (at least in very cold weather, while keeping them warmer by air if necessary to ventilate) will allow to have the crawl space much warmer and thus not to have condensation by connecting it at the cellar which with the same soil has no moisture at 13 ° C.
But in hot and humid weather outside, you have to be sure that the cellar and the crawl space is not wetter, and if not be able to increase its aeration at the melting of the snows and with the rains ??
I think that under these conditions when watching, there must not be too many problems.
Finally a polyane wire of good quality, blocks the potential wet lifts from under your slab, paying attention to the junction on the periphery.
In any case, it works for slabs on clay without crawlspace.
But if the floor and the polyane film on it, are colder under the insulation (a certainty), the air of your room, if wet (rain or hot sauna baths) can condense on this cold surface and prisoner s' accumulate in the long run, then end up wetting your floor, a cowherd to consider, which can be decreased by providing a flow on the sides of the condensation water and very little air can slip under the insulation.
But it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to avoid condensation as soon as there are very different temperatures in a home.
In France the humidity is almost always above 50 to 60%!
So I give my thoughts of common sense.
0 x
Thank you a thousand times for this lecture.
You guessed it, the T ° of the cellar is due to bad insulation (kitchen above) and the boiler room just behind.
I thought it would be cold at the low point of the show but I had not thought of the contribution of moisture due to the sauna and the jacuzzi, and therefore the possible condensation at this place.
Even if I double the insulation here, I guess it will not change much.
Is there a calculation to make to know the temperature on the ground (and more particularly in this space concealed 80 cm (3M50 X 4M00 surface)?
I do not have room to put a radiator, and as it is heavily wood if there is condensation, hello molds behind sofas ....
Maybe a system of independent hot air nozzles for easy adjustment but if it does not work continuously I'm afraid that the wood or the parquet does not support it .....
Is there a floor heating system that does not require pouring cement and is compatible with all wood?
Thank you
You guessed it, the T ° of the cellar is due to bad insulation (kitchen above) and the boiler room just behind.
I thought it would be cold at the low point of the show but I had not thought of the contribution of moisture due to the sauna and the jacuzzi, and therefore the possible condensation at this place.
Even if I double the insulation here, I guess it will not change much.
Is there a calculation to make to know the temperature on the ground (and more particularly in this space concealed 80 cm (3M50 X 4M00 surface)?
I do not have room to put a radiator, and as it is heavily wood if there is condensation, hello molds behind sofas ....
Maybe a system of independent hot air nozzles for easy adjustment but if it does not work continuously I'm afraid that the wood or the parquet does not support it .....
Is there a floor heating system that does not require pouring cement and is compatible with all wood?
Thank you
0 x
I do not have a very precise idea of your exact configuration, but if the surface of walls or soil is much colder you will have more condensed water above it will pass hot air moderately wet that will pass on!
So ventilating a cold spot, with air from the wet room to 20 ° C or above will only worsen the phenomenon, with a real flood of liquid water !!
Look again at the dew point curves !!
Better isolating these surfaces increases the inner surface T strongly, calculable by knowing the complete composition of the walls in thermal conductivity (calculated as constant current electric resistors ie thermal flux)
So if the thermal resistance of the insulation is much greater than that of the front wall, then the surface T is close to that of the room (but a few degrees lower
The air in convective contact insulates approximately 1 cm of effective air which sets this temperature and therefore, roughly, T decreases relatively to the delta T of the wall, of this 1cm divided by the thickness of equivalent insulation in air
(Dela T of wall) x1cm / (still air thickness with the same thermal resistance as the wall)
).
!)
http://www.abdistri.net/typo/index.php?id=172
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_re ... lectronics
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9sis ... conduction
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9sis ... convection
http://www.thermexcel.com/french/ressourc/deperdit.htm
And links in it !!
What to drown !!
But it is imperative that the wall inside hot side is waterproof or impervious to air and its water vapor, which otherwise crossing will condense on the cold external surface! that's the reason for the vapor barrier!
So we have to be careful about that, with good sealing especially on the ground where a condensation water accumulates endless over weeks, a little drainage may be useful, your sand may be wet if the slightest air can enter through unavoidable pressure variations, to trap a water that never leaves !!
So on the walls insulate with internal waterproof wall as plasterboard, even tiles, and on the floor even more care waterproof warm side, especially with next sauna, which saw 100% moisture will condense on any wall around even T 1 ° C below the water of the sauna, which is the case of a wall even isolated!.
You see this in public pools and saunas, hence waterproof tiles !!
I can only give principles to avoid surprises.
So ventilating a cold spot, with air from the wet room to 20 ° C or above will only worsen the phenomenon, with a real flood of liquid water !!
Look again at the dew point curves !!
Better isolating these surfaces increases the inner surface T strongly, calculable by knowing the complete composition of the walls in thermal conductivity (calculated as constant current electric resistors ie thermal flux)
So if the thermal resistance of the insulation is much greater than that of the front wall, then the surface T is close to that of the room (but a few degrees lower
The air in convective contact insulates approximately 1 cm of effective air which sets this temperature and therefore, roughly, T decreases relatively to the delta T of the wall, of this 1cm divided by the thickness of equivalent insulation in air
(Dela T of wall) x1cm / (still air thickness with the same thermal resistance as the wall)
).
!)
http://www.abdistri.net/typo/index.php?id=172
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_re ... lectronics
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9sis ... conduction
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9sis ... convection
http://www.thermexcel.com/french/ressourc/deperdit.htm
And links in it !!
What to drown !!
But it is imperative that the wall inside hot side is waterproof or impervious to air and its water vapor, which otherwise crossing will condense on the cold external surface! that's the reason for the vapor barrier!
So we have to be careful about that, with good sealing especially on the ground where a condensation water accumulates endless over weeks, a little drainage may be useful, your sand may be wet if the slightest air can enter through unavoidable pressure variations, to trap a water that never leaves !!
So on the walls insulate with internal waterproof wall as plasterboard, even tiles, and on the floor even more care waterproof warm side, especially with next sauna, which saw 100% moisture will condense on any wall around even T 1 ° C below the water of the sauna, which is the case of a wall even isolated!.
You see this in public pools and saunas, hence waterproof tiles !!
I can only give principles to avoid surprises.
0 x
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