internal insulation old stone house.

[Jeya]

Hello everybody

We wish to re-enter an old house (estimated at 1760 / 1800). The walls of 65cm thick, are stone / lime mortar for the majority. A second part was made more recently brick.

Outside, the plaster was remade there many years painted cement.

Inside, the walls are, according to the parts covered with multiple layers of cement, plaster and plaster particular. Then, an air gap of a few cm and a single plasterboard covered with a painted glass cloth.

The floor is composed of a bed of gravel covered with sand, on which a yoke-2 3cm was cast in and on which the cement tiles are laid.

We broke this old plasterboard and discovered behind the walls are damp; not wet, just damp; materials, such as plaster, are saturated. There may be rising damp, but then broke the ground at some point at the foot of the walls, and noting that the sand that lies beneath the screed is dry and healthy, I have doubts about these lifts. I think this moisture on the surface of the walls is mostly had to condensation on the cold wall, because of an airspace without appearing to breathe and cement plaster walls draining nothing and therefore leaving humidity settle in the surface materials (plaster, plasterboard, plaster ...). In addition, the house not having VMC and PVC window with double glazing without mortise, the air was not able to clean naturally.
We found places, either on the wall or on the back of plasterboard, made by saltpetre which seems to delight in this atmosphere.

We pride ourselves now all these interior walls to find the original wall that he seems healthy. To the outside, unfortunately, they will remain as such for the moment; we will consider a lime plaster / hemp thereafter.


Currently, we would double these walls against a bulkhead in cellular Concrete 7cm, leaving a vacuum of 3 - 4 cm. My fear is that this will empty air transforms back into the culture broth.

Is it better to keep that empty air or enjoy the work to fill it with mineral insulation (I thought the SLS20) or other?

existing:


considered:

For the floor, I'm still not well developed either.


Subsidiary questions:
- What a finish applied to the BC? I guess that must be a lime plaster, but there's there other viable solutions?
- Is a VMC hygro would have its place? Or mortise + + aerator hoods cuusine the bathroom enough?


Thank you for your opinions.

[Robob]

Hello,
We must let the wall breathe: 65cm a wall of stone and lime (and possibly clay soil center) is more than enough in terms of insulation. For against, there is a large inertia to the temperature change.

I live a stone village house in the Val d'Oise and foundation walls are always more or less humid. in some rooms (laundry and kitchen), I placed a double wall (plasterboard) leaving a vacuum. I installed a VMC double flux in these wet pieces, extract air: extractors are placed behind the placos, so that the exhaust air of the room vents along the wall.

Do not put any coating on the stone walls that would prevent them from breathing: cement and plaster should be avoided inside but also outside. And any unvented insulating at least by an air gap.

This is especially important on the ground floor, at the foundation.

[Jeya]

Thank you for this Robob response.

So I conclude that the currently proposed solution seems viable.

For the VMC is not this stupid idea to place the extractors in the air space rather than in the room, it forces the air to circulate in the air empty and I guess this has got to help maintain the walls dry.

Other opinions?

[Robob]

you should take a look at the website www.tiez-breiz.org : well, the guys are a little at heart, they will probably scream crime with the floating chaco beton for example, but the forum is full of good advice.
Look alsohttp://www.forumconstruire.com/ : There they are more in the new, but there are also a lot of stuff on the old stones.
Personally, I consulted widely both sites to retype home.
(And I made a floating concrete slab hedgehog in my home eve, so ...)

If not :
-attention that your drain does not have the opposite effect: turn it into fleet reserve or create a cold draft under the screed. I did not put any.
-Pense To transfer the cement on the external walls to re-washed: it prevents the wall to breathe and the fleet (if any) can escape only through the inside.
-for BC, home I directly coating the wall with lime, with some stone walls in sight: I see too the interest of a doubling in BC, except for parts of water. The BC may be coated directly with lime (gobetti hydro and aerial), I have not tried.

[Obamot]

These are common questions (see existing son);

In short:

1) Why make an "interior" insulation source of all the problems of condensation, bridges of cold, retention of humidity in the materials between day cycle VS night cycle (and even worse, development of possible fungi in the walls, real cancers of the constructions? old), instead of doing what logic would like: external insulation, since thick walls are real refrigeration pumps (there are examples in this site with cellulose wadding compressed in wooden boxes, for example , then trellis and rustic plaster on it ...).

2) By "passivating" your house, you would kill three birds with one stone, sanitation then economy of cellular concrete, reduction of the rejection of Co2 since much less heating (since in any case the cachet "old house old stones"disappeared by the installation of a painted coating on the outside ...).

3) The external insulation you solve all your moisture problems (bad you replaced the windows with double glazing already, because old could still have used to protect new the ravages of time, the plastics used for frame age very badly and may even become brittle!)

4) The thickness of the walls in this case would be an ally, since they would store heat during the diurnal cycle to gently and comfortably relax during the night cycle ... and most of all cold bridges ...

5) Moreover you would save significant heating, which quickly amortiraient investment materials (especially if you get your hands dirty ...)

6) If you did not do it, then I would advise strongly anchoring your tile as you plan to do, because there you are about to create a cold deck ... IMHO!

Hoping that it will help ...

[Jeya]

> robob: Thanks for the links, I have already explored them (among many others!).
Public chat forumbuild, I rather made white cabbage ... And on Tiez breizh, excellent site, it is true that their approach is very "in depth" as you say. But in any case very good advice that got me started.

For the outdoors, I did not talk about it. It's simply because it's set aside for the moment, we have neither the time nor the budget ...



> Obamot: Thank you for this answer. I was expecting a response like this; Nothing more normal. What is not normal, however, is the situation we are in.
then it comes back to the problem of implementation, timing and economic reality. There are certainly technical logic as you pointed out, but there also and especially in our case, the reality on the ground.

economic reality:
Our financial situation is catastrophic (for real). This is the rescue of our house (and our family) following a scam damned good climb. I will not speak of the debt ratio, but say we are in the M ****. Our room for maneuver is very very small (too to consider a renovation within the strict rules of art). Incidentally, I thank my banker, without which we would be in the street now (and it's not really the person to whom I thought I could turn me like what ...).

timing:
The house is habitable, later in the summer. It must be completed (at least the DRC); for reasons of pro order, the house no longer require, inside, works other than finishing.

Implementation :
The original building is very badly damaged, there are patches everywhere (concrete, cement, bricks, etc ...). Of the 4 masons and plasterers who saw the house when we were still considering an interior lime / hemp plaster, there is only one who answered "yes, but with big reservations". However, there is no doubt about the solidity of the frame (expert, craftsmen - masons, carpenters -, association - Maison Paysanne de France). The hard walls are not specially to be taken over and the framework is in excellent condition.
Basically, we bought a square of grass on which there is a pile of stones and a few pieces of wood. It's like that...

- I'm 90% of the time alone on the site, the rest of the time I am accompanied by even novice as me. And wholesaler level, I am very restreins; we do not live on site and have work schedules that do not really coincide with the sun and the neighborhood agreement.
- I am totally new to structural work: So we forget the "it's easy a lime plaster", etc ... I have never used a concrete mixer in my life, so I let you imagine my mastery of float! I can do elec, plumbing and play Lego. I'm lucky to have my head and know how to use my hands, that's already it.
But as anyone, propelled into an unknown world, I have everything to learn, so I naturally orients me towards what I know, what I've done, seen, and especially to that for what I know I could find technical support.
I do not have the means to call in the pros (quotes explode all understanding). The only pro is considered the builder to pour the slab and the screed.



All that to say that it takes really simple things and not the work that ask, experience, know-how and equipment that I do not have. Also, when I would be alone on my site and that I would be facing a problem (what will happen), I would have nothing and nobody to lean on me.


So I need the simple and viable. It is not in the context of a renovation tip top, but a life. It is no question of value good; the house will cost us anyway 40-50% more expensive than its real value. Suffice to say that investment issue, we've seen better. We are renovating for us, and it will surely be for life. And we will do with!

For the anecdote, our lawyer advised us to appeal to "all together" ... that is to say!



Now what I plan there is no such value, I am particularly aware. I have not laid it alone in my corner. It is a synthesis of what has been considered, at one time or another with other actors, artisans, assoc ', etc ... I try to do the best and avoid the worst. We forget the issue of profitable inertia, thermal economy, historic character, etc ... I do not expect a miracle!
Now I also know that matter renovation, there are far worse than what I plan to do and there's no loss of life so far. Houses with plasterboard linings with or without wool X adhered directly to the wall, you see them everywhere; the cement coating also, etc! It's a shame, but that's how ...


I have to move forward and validate a guideline. I just want to know if this basis, we can make improvements, tweaking details, etc ... If there really are things that are wrong or otherwise.

[Obamot]

Yes there is: and given the little element, the answer can hardly be positive.

I say that in the state of knowledge (see my 5 point). Furthermore, are you far from cities? If you are in the countryside in an isolated house, are there farms around? Or are you in a village or even a terraced house? Even in a subdivision. All that follows can indeed influence the way ...

Let us take again: if we made the calculation (we say metered at home) of all the materials, the planning in time, the annoyances eliminated, the risks that any "renovation company" suggests ... The insulation solution from the outside, contrary to what one might think, is really VERY "economical" (all things considered), and does not require special knowledge if the person who does the implementation is a good handyman and is able to follow a outlines and guidelines / advice. As for the cost of materials, it is very low considering what you recommend in the solution above ...

Now, the abandonment of a viable technical solution simply because of time or not obtained authorization, is not an enforceable argument. Because logically, no one can claim a choice without considering the facts, the land and that suggests a project to be completed. Basically, you have to be humble in the field of construction: if there are trades it is to reduce construction costs, if not all developers will improviseraient great handymen under construction!

What I mean is that "it is often the situation that decides" for us (if you see what I mean ... In your case this is obvious given the constraints that you have and that you refer to yourselves, the whole is not to be mistaken in choosing the solution). For example, if a chap decided to delete the lintel of a door "for reasons of budget or deadline, even hypothetically lack of authorization"It would not do so, the wall above fall (and this is also true in electrical and / or plumbing right? So why did it not in isolation?)

That said this is without prejudice, we do not know and nobody has seen your home! *

What is its location, altitude, slope, she is in a flood zone or a bowl? Near a wood or forest? What is there nearby, basically?

I would add that avoiding "the worst" is precisely the goal of all my posts (and while doing so, to go for a technically good and "economical" walkthrough, so as not to have to do the job twice. . and in this perspective "all together" is not really a reference of seriousness when we see the hard-won decisions and the last-minute draft solutions, not to mention that they do not go hand in hand dead with the materials used: since they do not pay for them ... And honestly the installation errors are recurrent, the sites a big mess that I do not wish you. And this until the paintings or they are not even damn giving basic instructions, like re-painting with a brush before doing large surfaces with a roller! On TV it's nice, but I would not like to see the detail of the finishes!)

Kind regards.

* To start, from basement to attic, would you have pictures (?) From top to bottom: condition of roof, frame, frame & wall junction, exterior interiors, walls ditto all around, photos of details according to your diagrams above, interior / exterior floor-wall junction, detailed pictures of the holes you have done to highlight the previous tinkering (and all the weak points to be treated / monitored), double glazing, facades and facade details, up to the kitchen, bathrooms, laundry room, and possibly the boiler room and boiler or then a fireplace if you think that this is enough, or otherwise what you recommend to do this ... And of course all the floors (especially where you suggest pouring a screed) And finally a possible list of other priority works that you should plan and that you cannot postpone ... Because if you ask for help, without it it will be difficult to speak without knowing the situation ...)

[Robob]

Level economy, I think the insulation of stone walls 60 cm is unnecessary, either outside or inside.

Now we also see the region or are you situated.

The most effective is to first isolate the openings and roof.

For the interior aspect, the most economic means remains lime: sand, lime, a small electric mixer (unless you work in groups, this is sufficient) and elbow grease.

It is especially important to schedule time when you make or even ..

Frankly, do a wall with lime is simpler than asking and coat of plasterboard: in addition, it is rustic and is looking less about faults.

For cons, the windows, it's a budget. But not worth putting 36 insulating layers if doors and windows are full of air.

We see a lot of insulation solutions on forums, with lots of numbers, but it has to be airtight first.

[Obamot]

If this is so unnecessary to isolate a stone wall 65 cm thick so leave all that in the state!


Lambda expressed in W / mK (Watt / meter per Kelvin).

Note the bad coefficient. cellular concrete! So yes, put that is useless (I say above).
Shame to have broken plasterboard! As for the geographical location, I had also already noticed!

As for the stone / rock, see for yourself! Of course, 1 m. concrete / stone will "insulate" better than 20cm, but anyone who has ever been to a fallout shelter in winter will know that these are theoretical coefs. In practice in the army in winter, in the shelters it was wet, we froze them and we had all suffered a death from hell
You are BAT ingé Robob, or have advanced knowledge I presume? ;-) if so, I let you do the math >>>

As for the joinery for the facade frames, we can take reclaimed wood, so we don't need it to be "pretty" as long as it is buried. You just need a vehicle to transport the wood (everything except chipboard eh ...), a circular saw for 60 € at Lidl and the galvanized attachment angles + screws and pads + drills to drill the stone. Be careful before cutting the wood to carefully check that there are no screws, nail / s hinge / s etc which remain from the old use. Take all precautionary measures protecting your eyes and hands ... After filling with cellullose wadding (or even better, glass wool compressed 20cm, in this case the frames are simplified), then the trellis on which the rustic plaster will come (there are sturdy plastic ties provided for): and voila, we have "passivated" an old house! Please note that glass wool requires skin protection and a respiratory mask to filter micro-particles: imperative! (But cellulose wadding and other insulators too ...)
Bonsoir.

[Robob]

So that's what I said above, about forums, lots of numbers.

If it is a stone wall of limestone types (limestone) fashioned the clay and lime, its insulating capacity is sufficient. Especially if it is thick 60cm. There will be little loss through the walls.
As against these walls built directly on the ground are real blotters fleet, which give them winter and summer high temperature inertia: a typical example is a vaulted cellar or temperature may remain between 12 and 16 degree throughout the year (that's liabilities ).

An external insulation is not so simple: especially in cornice when, as on many stone house, the roof does not exceed the frame.

An interior insulation is useless, except to isolate the humidity of the wall on the ground floor: in this case you must add a VMC, if possible double flow, and ventilate the walls (in extraction of course).

In the case of our friend and saw these ways, I think the most urgent is to insulate the roof and openings. IT must think about the integration of VMC double flow, especially if the house is wet.