internal insulation old stone house.

Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ... short thermal comfort. Insulation, wood energy, heat pumps but also electricity, gas or oil, VMC ... Help in choosing and implementation, problem solving, optimization, tips and tricks ...
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Obamot
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by Obamot » 16/11/14, 20:31

But what time do we live in, no but "hello" what ( : Cheesy: )

Above there is nothing very interesting or very supposed, and especially the fact of repeating the same questions twice, proves that we have not read these, and therefore that we do not care a little of what others write ... And how can we say / evaluate all of this, without knowing more about the building! (This is not a question.) We can finally note that the point on professional qualifications in the field of construction has (deliberately?) Been forgotten, but let's move on!

These are not just numbers, he intended given the example of the atomic shelter, the coef of thermal conductivity (we can dispute that, but then we have to redo the laws of physics ...) outside the office of study, there is also the example of this close friend (with reasoning from the same barrel) who has such a house, from which he precisely started by insulating the roof and without any effect on the rest!

You should know that at the time of the construction of this type of house, the fuel (usually wood cut and recovered by the inhabitants themselves) was really cheap if not sweaty and people were satisfied with ambient temperatures that could remain whole seasons between 14 and 18 ° C (although I remember having lived at much lower temperatures with frosts having arrived inside the house even in my childhood ...) . We had a nice outbreak in the evening, the walls stored the heat overnight and people were in no rush ... Today what? We heat with electricity ... We must not be sick for work, we heat more because the Madam does not want us to set fire to HER fireplace (it gets dirty ...) except when there are friends who come to the house, because apart from that it does not support a little smoke ... (General diagram, but there are exceptions, except that it is these ladies who make a law nowadays, no ... and they like their little comfort which is not discussed ... do you see them at the chore of wood!?!?) etc

The only point for which I would possibly partially agree (AFTER hearing a better description of this house), would be the phenomenon of capillarity and rising humidity in the walls ... But the friend in question did not not, yet his house adjoins a source of drinking water which he must drain the natural retention basin each spring (which is barely 5m from the front wall for the nearest part, I have examples already published on the Web)! Despite that it is very cold, but not excessively wet!

So without offense, it is wrong to generalize and navigate the pifometer ... Each case is a special case.

In short: there is no point in planning to insulate the roof BEFORE taking stock of the construction as a whole (and "setting the priorities that go well"), AND / OR if there is a floor which is currently "technical vacuum" (since apparently the priority for Jeya would be to make the ground floor viable), AND / OR neither without knowing what its structure is to know what should be done or not (simply put down recovery mattresses on the garret floor can resolve this temporarily in certain cases ...);

As for the suggestion of a CMV, it's pretty hilarious to suggest it while:
a) we would not want to insulate the facade;
b) it is unclear to what extent a double flow would be necessary;
c) nor without knowing either how this house would be heated as it is;
d) and especially when a double flow VMC is precisely recommended after having passivated a house (although the suggestions above do not take the path);
e) at no time was it suggested to remediate the base of the walls (while rightly the humidity problem and its cause have been pointed out, and we would have expected more of a measurement proposal, such as excavating the front wall to 80cm / 1,30m to put DELTA®-MS after having possibly tarred and after applying the primer which is going well ... aaah the pifometer ...);
f) and if this has not been considered, it is precisely that which is what makes sense beforehand with a facade insulation, with in the alternative a drain;
=> but all that, we can't say as long as we don't know what it is all about, as long as we don't have more information on CQFD construction
=> the pifometer I tell you ... the pifometer : Cheesy:

Well, well ... we must leave the enthusiasts to their self-beliefs, I believe ...;)
Last edited by Obamot the 16 / 11 / 14, 21: 10, 1 edited once.
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Ahmed
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by Ahmed » 16/11/14, 20:56

What can "sufficient" insulation be? Image
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"Please don't believe what I'm telling you."
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by Obamot » 16/11/14, 21:26

From the same barrel:

... wrote :I think that the insulation of stone walls of 60 cm is useless [...] However, there is a big inertia when the temperature changes [...] I installed a double flow VMC: extractors are placed rear the placos, so that the air extracted from the room ventilates along the wall.

... yes there, for sure, the delta is not in the subtraction Image Further:
You have to let the wall breathe [...] You should not put any coating on the stone walls that would prevent them from breathing [...] but it must first be hermetic
;-) ... and as the other would say: "get out the air but ticks ..." Image
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by Robob » 17/11/14, 10:17

Obamot wrote:2) By "passivating" your house, you would kill three birds with one stone, sanitation then economy of cellular concrete, reduction of the rejection of Co2 since much less heating (since in any case the cachet "old house old stones"disappeared by the installation of a painted coating on the outside ...).
3) The exterior insulation would solve all your humidity problems

The theory is fine: the stone walls have been covered on the outside with a cement coating and they no longer breathe (on the outside). Above all, it is therefore necessary to remove the plaster by stitching and reinforce the lime wall. The main source of humidity in this type of construction does not come from outside but from the ground. The exterior insulation must therefore allow the wall to breathe: understand the humidity to escape.
It is better not to insulate this kind of wall.
Not to mention the costs: adding 20cm thick to the walls also means providing for the widening of the roof and the displacement of the downspouts.
The exterior walls are cemented, I would recommend at least to prick up to 1m high and to redo with lime. Otherwise, all the rising moisture will drain into the house.
(Too bad you have replaced the windows with double glazing already, because the old could still have been used to protect the new from the ravages of time, the plastics used for the frames age very badly and can even become brittle!)

we see that you have not looked closely at the wooden joinery installed for 30 years in tufa walls full of moisture. It's not just PVC, aluminum also exists and when you install it yourself, the cost difference is not that great.
Hello the loss of light in the house leaving the two joinery.
Another brief theory.
4) The thickness of the walls in this case would be an ally, since they would store heat during the diurnal cycle to gently and comfortably relax during the night cycle ... and most of all cold bridges ...

In winter, the main source for storing heat, facing south only, would be the sun: would it be better in this case external insulation or not at all?
:|
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by Obamot » 17/11/14, 11:12

Why take points from ten posts that you did not believe you saw fit to answer 3 times?

- we should not contradict ourselves, and sometimes tell you that to isolate it must be "airtight", and sometimes say the opposite, or that "the walls breathe" (without ever talking about In short, it's the regular confusion: this is where we realize that the "theory" is useful, especially when you have all the parts of the Lego in hand ...);
- do not mix the concepts, there we always advance with the pifometer;
- the sanitation response has already been given since with DELTA®-MS, but I repeat, it's premature, we're talking in a vacuum as long as we don't have more elements.
- for YOUR "theories", the priority of the priority was a question of budget, you give directions even before having precise answers to the questions: where we are going with that ...! Nowhere, answer in a vacuum, I am in the concrete there, like that, how are you? ...;
- for lighting, anyway in these houses (and again we are talking in a vacuum since we do not have photos), the size of the windows is anyway very small so 20cm is the width of an A4 sheet, it will peanut must stop telling it (in comparison with modern constructions). So 6500 K LED projectors at 20W in all rooms, it's like you have the sun inside! And no depression all year round + savings in electricity and especially in shrinks!
- as for storing heat, where did you see that there was a budget for that?
- aluminum for insulation work, this is the novelty that must be recommended, while it is to be avoided ...?
- it should be noted that in the state, there is already rising humidity and that this is precisely what must be corrected: then it is not by repeating the same errors that we will get there , is not it...

Anyway, I think we're going to stop there.

There necessarily there will be a compromise to find, for my part, being pragmatic, I wait to see.
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by Robob » 17/11/14, 13:56

Obamot wrote:Anyway, I think we're going to stop there.

finally an interesting proposition. : Mrgreen:
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by Obamot » 17/11/14, 19:06

...We know each other? And it makes humor more Image

Honestly, the solution to ventilate the technical voids with VMC is not stupid a priori ... But there it is no more "hermetic"however: in the semantic sense of the term. The b_a ba would be to recognize your mistakes, I say that, I say nothing, I do it too ...

Moreover, if there is so much NEED to ventilate (did they have VMC in the XNUMXth century), it is therefore good that the "solution"chosen is lame and we move forward! (Otherwise, with a solution producing a" healthy "environment, it would not be necessary to ventilate, that makes sense.) So yes lime, etc, except that ' we no longer live in the time when these buildings were built but with the search for comfort that we want today (and if that was the stake, only Jeya could say it ...) at best, by passivating old buildings, to aim for zero consumption of fossil energy, therefore almost zero CO2 emissions (but that can be discussed, and above all it can be calculated ... => budget => priorities => execution in a schedule)

Because basically, what use would it be to create the problem (or even move it) and then "abracadabra" we would seek to make it disappear by ventilating ... Image (everyone understood ...) Whereas ideally it would be better not to put the cart in front of the horse, so that "the solution" does not produce itself " the problem "(see condensation, residual humidity, capillarity or whatever ...): because a CMV is not there to overcome construction defects, it serves (or should be used) for something else : s'pa!

Well, well ... Ah and I actually said "we were going to stop there", as long as we didn't have a more detailed description, there was nothing pejorative or oriented in it (whatever ...).

There are just times when you get impatient ... : Mrgreen: : Cheesy:
There are other points (and other contradictions) we will see that later ...
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by Robob » 07/01/15, 19:45

I found a PDF which summarizes very well the principles of insulation to be applied on old walls:

http://www.territoires.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/atheba_murs_dans_bati_ancien.pdf

A good starting point for thinking and avoiding mistakes.
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by Obamot » 07/01/15, 23:48

It's me where the points / pages 1 to 2 are missing in this .pdf ??

Thermal fault
house major
old is the feeling
cold wall

[...]

Contemporary taste
for "exposed stone"
goes against comfort
and generates the cold wall effect

one couldn't say better ... : Mrgreen:

The dividing walls
separating the house
in several parts have
an often poorly taken role
into account. Yet in winter
as in summer, they have a role
thermal regulator
very useful. It is not recommended
to isolate them.

[...]

From the outside
This isolation mode will be possible
if the facade modenature
not of interest
heritage. All the inertia of the
building is preserved.

That's what I say, that's why you have to insulate from the outside!

Finally, apart from a few minor remarks, I agree with this document!
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