Energivore house insulation - request advice

Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ... short thermal comfort. Insulation, wood energy, heat pumps but also electricity, gas or oil, VMC ... Help in choosing and implementation, problem solving, optimization, tips and tricks ...
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Did67
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by Did67 » 28/01/11, 17:43

MargotM wrote:
We have a traditional fireplace, we also thought of replacing it: insert or break and put a stove?
?


If you are not using it, plug it already to avoid the loss of hot air by draft ... If in addition the frames (doors, windows) are not waterproof, even in calm weather, you just heat up drafts. air with your electric radiators (which heat the air above all if it is convectors, called "toaster") ... The air is rejected by the chimney and enters through the "leaks" ...

Otherwise, actually break and put the pan (a little more efficient, all other things being equal, than an insert) ...

And if not, at a minimum, an insert ...

Depending on your lifestyle (if not often at home), a pellet stove has the advantage of controlling and regulating / programming itself - if the model is well chosen (and if you buy the wood, the pellets are the same order of magnitude of price than the log, reduced to the unit of effective heat).
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dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 28/01/11, 19:33

Beware of quick advice, often valid for some, rich or with conditions different from yours !!
So think about it, find out and judge for yourself, especially since it's expensive !!.
Promote the cheapest and simple and effective.
Beware of fashions, in Canada, twice as cold, but much cheaper !!!
The pros sometimes scam !!
Check the quotes thoroughly, rules (see What to Choose, most quotes are illegal), area, exact details, otherwise you will get the scam of something other than shown but not written.
This, which the weakest and poorest get ripped off the most, messes me up !!
possible example for you to read:
We want to live in the attic, the floor area is 90 m2 and the area to be insulated (roof) approximately. 190m2

leaves you perplexed because the surface of a roof on a floor of 90m2 at 45 ° gives 90m2 / cos45 ° = 127m2 and inside 190m2 seems really a lot !! To be seen with care.
Often, depending on how you express yourself, with the right vocabulary or not, the quotes are very different !!
Exactly like with garage owners.
First know how much you spend on heating per year with KWh precision and compare to other charges, such as housing and property taxes.
For me the taxes approach 3 times the heating. !!
So otherwise, for:
The windows: the problem is what I feel the air pass when I am near ... I was also told not to change them, first do exterior insulation.

you can locate the biggest leaks and put inexpensive rubber gaskets of the right size on the top and bottom leaks to close them, on the cheap with a little patience and care.
price 100 to 300 € against 20000 € to change all the windows with double glazing, like my neighbor with the same house as me, who thus gains 1 ° C to 1,5 ° C !!!!
That you risk losing by discovering that you have to ventilate with VMC or pay and install a double flow.
On the other hand, thermal convection on a cold surface of the air circulates it and gives a cold sensation.
Give lots of specific details, which you don't seem to do easily.
External insulation costs 150 to 300 € per m2 over 300m2 at random for you !!! to divide the losses by three plus insulate the roof in addition and change the windows by moving them outwards to eliminate thermal bridges, i.e. € 45000 + € 2x20000 = € 85000 to the ladle !!
Except to do it yourself, but a lot of professional work !!
To be weighed in relation to the real gain and depreciation !!
More big progress is foreseeable in the future which will change the modes and choices, as in the past become absurd !!

1)
How to see what the walls are made of?

1a) First, simple, hit it with your hand, fist or a hard object, small hammer, and listen to the noise and feel whether it is soft or hard, this in different places !!
In fact, very useful rudimentary sound ultrasound !!
So hard and dry, it's plaster on cinderblock, so almost no insulation (case of the 50s to the 60s)
If moderately hard, but less dry, brick against the partition with an air gap or a little polystyrene, at the time 72 the top was 2cm!
Finally if soft enough, resonating easily, hollow, then plasterboard with polystyrene thickness to be determined.
Allez educate your ear with friends knowing the insulation of their walls !!
1b) look in the corners, junctions towards crawling, basement, staircase, thickness of walls, etc ... there are always places where you can see the insulation and its thickness.
Ask friends to help you see these details.
1c) The thickness of the walls indicates the insulation:
20cm concrete block, plus 2cm outside of plaster and 2cm inside of plaster gives 24cm of thickness for almost nothing, only breeze block, light insulation, but at the top in the 50s !!!
The fashions are changing !!!!
If the wall is thicker the excess compared to 24 to 25 cm gives that of the insulation,
or plasterboard of 1cm with x of polystyrene, in 72, 3 to 5cm at the top for the electric for wall of 30cm ??
either 5cm of double partition brick + x of polystyrene or an air gap of 1cm.
1d) Finally, if still in doubt, a small hole drilled in the wall to fix something to the wall (4 to 8mm) allows you to drill up to the cinder block wall by seeing what comes out and to measure the thicknesses by drilling.
The answer takes longer to write than to do on the wall !!
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by moby25 » 28/01/11, 20:56

To summarize :

You should know your work budget.

The little things that will cost you almost nothing and bring you something:

- Plug the hole in the chimney if you do not use it. Indeed there are big losses by natural draft

- Caulk your windows: With gaskets sold at any DIY store. Silicone or acrylic sealant may also be necessary if air is coming from the building.

Then, more expensive:

- attic insulation
- interior or exterior insulation. If you do, it will be in my opinion interior considering the price ...

Already if all that is mentioned there is done you will already have a huge thermal gain!
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by dedeleco » 29/01/11, 00:01

There are hatches that allow the chimneys to be closed when not in use to put in the chimney in front of the opening inside the chimney, as I have at home, with a pull tab to open when we made a fire.
Putting an insert with hot air circulation is a simple means of heating in addition much cheaper with a not excessive investment, and therefore profitable to reduce the price of heating.
Hot air is sent through ducts to the first floor.

Something important is the condition of your timber frame which is probably good, but with a harmful PCP treatment always put in the 70s, a bit like PCB and therefore not to breathe by letting it concentrate without ventilation, and to leave evaporate towards the outside through the tiles and to avoid entering the living areas because carcinogenic !!
!
http://www.labrivert58.fr/SWaP/DOC/traitementbois.pdf
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentachloroph%C3%A9nol
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traitement ... s_des_bois
http://la.maison.empoisonnee.pagesperso-orange.fr/
http://la.maison.empoisonnee.pagesperso ... nte.no.htm
http://www.terre-inipi.com/Presse/mear1.html


So it is important not to wrap the frame and the wood in plastic or insulating coverings which in fact prevent the release of harmful PCP vapors (carcinogenic and dangerous and prohibited since 1994).
My neighbor on a house similar to mine did, which is dangerous, despite my remarks.
If the wood was not treated, since 1974, it would be completely eaten by insects !!!
Wood with thick varnish, emits less PCP by evaporation than raw !!
For your children this is not good at all:
Pentachlorophenol (or PCP) is a toxic product, which may itself contain microcontaminants including dioxins and furans, or hexachlorobenzene from the manufacturing process.

As per the past, many products currently used will be banned in the future !!
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by Did67 » 29/01/11, 12:16

dedeleco wrote:
External insulation costs 150 to 300 € per m2 over 300m2 at random for you !!! to divide the losses by three plus insulate the roof in addition and change the windows by moving them outwards to eliminate thermal bridges, i.e. € 45000 + € 2x20000 = € 85000 to the ladle !!
Except to do it yourself, but a lot of professional work !!



Agree on the need to reflect. And that the "small DIY" are expensive and immediately profitable (joints, plugging the chimney)

However, an investment in insulation, if financially possible, in addition to reducing the heating bill as soon as the work is finished, increases the value of the home (this increase remains; in case of resale, we get back the stake, or even more; but it is "frozen" money; my conviction is even that as the energy will increase - imagine the fuel which will triple in the next 15 years - the difference in value between well-insulated houses and poorly insulated houses, therefore unheatable, will accelerate; so I think that investing in insulation can be a speculative investment)
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by dedeleco » 29/01/11, 13:17

The price increase threshold is around that (or double) the taxes, housing and property on the house !!
Me for my 1974 house, I am barely above a third!
What has exploded is more taxes on the house than fossil fuels in fact, in 40 years !!!

So reducing the price of heating for me is marginal for this house !!

I don't think these fuels are going to run out, apart from speculation, deceptive manipulation, wars, momentary, by firms and speculators to pump our money, because the earth is full of fossil fuels (with abiotic oil in addition), enough to multiply CO2 by 10 (like 55 million years ago) and melt all the ice, on the Antarctic, and make go up the sea from 80m inexorably to more than 2m per century, as 13000 years ago without CO2 !! (at more than 10 times the current speed).
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/12/01/s ... t-ice-age/

There is even in the ground enough to burn all the oxygen in our atmosphere, almost nothing compared to the oxygen fixed in the oceans and the earth !!
There are only 580million years that there is oxygen in our atmosphere, compared to 4,5 billion years of age of the earth !!
So it will be necessary to remake the disappearance of CO2 underground in carbonates as life has done for a billion years, well before running out of fossil fuels.

Without life, the earth would be like Venus, only CO2 !!
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by moby25 » 30/01/11, 12:40

I'm not sure that the investment in exterior insulation catches up with resale. At least not all.

For example a small house, but with external insulation remains a small house, so the price is not too high.

Still few people are interested really to the insulation of their house. They have no more notions ...

For my part, for example, it is because I was interested in it and that I have traveled through forums including this one, that I was able to learn a lot of things. Before that I knew glass wool, double glazing and basta ...

Regarding the cost of heating a house, if renewable energy is used (wood), there is no reason for prices to soar, in theory, because it is what is rare which is expensive (oil). However, renewable, as its name suggests, is renewable, not uncommon in the immediate future.

But since the trend is speculation all the way, it is not impossible that wood will increase strongly. It would be unacceptable.
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by Did67 » 30/01/11, 13:01

We agree that we are playing Madame Soleil there!

Insulation had virtually no impact on the price until then. Have you seen buyers worry about it before buying? Afterwards, yes, when the first bills fall.

And so until then, we did not recover the stake, that's for sure ...

But I think [as I said, it's a "belief" - which doesn't prove anything] that this will change. As said, I think there will be people who will no longer be able to pay 2 l of fuel per year (after the taxes that they will have to pay; I doubt they will drop). Talk to a delivery driver: the number of people who buy per 500 liters is exploding!

I admit that it is, today, pure speculation (but certain other financial investments too!).

I could be wrong.
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dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 30/01/11, 13:48

Especially since what is currently recommended in fashion, in isolation, will be out of fashion and out of date in 10 or 20 years, or even make people laugh or say how could they do that absurd !! (like changing windows to gain 1 ° C or 1,5 ° C, or condensation for 10%, etc.)

Compare with the Canadians (see Alain G's posts) with much better and less expensive, with their houses same old goods, better than ours future to the future BBC standard of 2012, them with usual -30 ° C !!
We make them laugh, Canadians !!

Also do not believe that the current expensive insulation, even solar, will enhance your home in 10 or 20 years, everything will be reconsidered, because progress is not predictable, both in its modes and totally unpredictable fundamental discoveries, some on solar !!!
In addition, as now, people will continue to see only the flashy (shown repeatedly on M6 at the moment), without seeing or being aware of what is hidden, in the isolation !! and to discover after purchase the chasm in money of the heating, which for the moment remains very lower than that of the taxes !!!
It will be like now, where overcrowded places in high demand will see heat loss junk selling (even scams) at very good prices, and deserted places prices too low for very nice houses !!

We are not at a true peak of oil or fossil fuels, a misleading statement, which was already written in the years 1973 and following, with the statement that in 2000 we would no longer have oil and that it was necessary to emergency protect yourself by building lots of nuclear power plants in France in 1974 !! (exactly as it was already 50 years ago that nuclear fusion was promised in 25 years, a promise that continues with ITER, without end).
We discover plenty of shale gas everywhere to be exploited while despising the local populations !!!
So do not believe that the price of oil will be multiplied by 10 to make the overly expensive insulation of your house profitable.

Me, in 1974, I was concerned with affordable insulation, in the past, by avoiding absurdities such as all electric or by choosing those with an emergency fireplace !! !!
The purchasing power price of oil has not increased significantly !!!
People have new needs elsewhere, telephone, fashions, etc .. and not 2500 € from smoke instead of blah on the phone or computers and TVs !!

Anyway, a simple stove or wood insert (free if recovered from the wood that I see thrown everywhere and never picked up (tiring) or much more expensive pellets) is a cheap solution for barely more than one to two years of fuel oil !!

So take stock of the real situation of the house, the different possibilities, the money available, the amortization time, and make a well-considered choice.

In my case, exterior insulation only makes sense as part of a cohesive complete renovation of the house.
Too many people do inconsistent partial jobs, inspired by canvassers who only see their benefit in disregard of the unconscious customer.
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dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 30/01/11, 14:05

Otherwise, actually break and put the pan (a little more efficient, all other things being equal, than an insert) ...

Deceptive statement, based on incomplete and thoughtless experience, because everything depends on the exchanger and the fireplace, so well constructed, an insert has a much better performance than a poorly designed stove !!
We even have stoves available in insert with the same output
If we take an insert with hot air circulation on the exchanger to heat the house by ducts (which I have, used more often by Canadians) we have a much better heating than a stove that burns, just heats the stay around him, and nothing else !! There are air circulation stoves (rare) while it is more often the case with inserts;
You can take a simple fireplace and surround it in the chimney to circulate the air around it.

So a stove is no better than an insert, everything depends on the detailed structure of each one, to look at with great precision and little detail in the catalogs, a real scam !!
Much more expensive, is not necessarily better, with sometimes hair-pulling regulations,
https://www.econologie.com/forums/post104559.html#104559
https://www.econologie.com/forums/post192437.html#192437
especially if in addition the installer is bad or crook, with often impossible to distinguish between the two !!
Last edited by dedeleco the 30 / 01 / 11, 15: 08, 1 edited once.
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