Trailer isolation

[combimaison]

Hello everybody

My friend and I own a fairground trailer. For connoisseurs, this is a Micheneau from 1965.

We want to appeal to insulation professionals so as not to make mistakes because we have about 100m² of insulation to install, and we do not want to have to redo everything in case of concern, ours being mainly condensation.

Description:

_ The trailer is made of galvanized sheet metal (external appearance)

_ The frame on which the sheet rests is made of oak, it is similar to that of a wooden frame house, squares and rectangles to be filled with insulation. (formerly insulated with glass wool)

_ The uprights and crosspieces are 5cm thick.

_ We bought, at an unbeatable price, 100m² of cork, 3cm thick.

The idea is to fill each rectangle between sleepers and uprights, in 3cm cork ("forcefully"), then staple on the uprights, a multilayer insulation thus leaving 2cm of air space between the cork and the multilayer. , before plating the whole in 5mm or 3mm plywood.

_ The trailer will be heated in a wood stove.

Is this stupidity? Risk of condensation between the sheet and the cork? Between multilayer and cork? Between plywood and multilayer?

Thanks in advance to the insulation pros.

[Superform]

Hello,

to test the problems of condensation, dew point, insulation, someone here had given a damn site:

http://www.u-wert.net/berechnung/u-wert ... &outside=0

it helps to understand what's going on

good luck

[combimaison]

Thank you for the link ! The site looks really screwed up, but not for the caravans it seems ... Also my German is .... nil ..

Other ideas / info?

[bidouille23]

Hi combination,

I don't know your trailer but the insulation yes , and the fitted out trucks too;) ...

In short, what is condensation?

water in the form of "fine vapor" which returns to its liquid form, in contact with the blade of cold air ...

Blade of cold quézako air? basically imagine layers of heat that will cool down, at one point there will be a blade that will become colder than the others (which we call blade of cold air) then the others will be colder and colder to the outside (outside temperature therefore).

In contact with this blade of cold air the water therefore resumes its liquid form which is called condensation ... it is this point at a variable distance depending on the insulator, which we will call the rosé point ...

So in a truck in a house or in a trailer it's all the same my friend;) .....
By cons for German I understand you completely I am not initiated either;) ...

Anyway, I'll give you a summary ... .

In your case the point of rosé you don't really care , and yes.

Why will you say to me, well because if you have steam which arrives on your galvanized walls, the point of rosé will be there in any case .... and if it is the case it is that you have a good taste in your construction;) ...

In your case the galvanized walls are waterproof (or you have a big problem ) ... Suddenly the choice between vapor brake or vapor barrier is not difficult because it is automatically a vapor barrier that you will choose (as its name suggests it prevents the migration of vapor through the walls). The vapor or membrane brake being set up in so-called "breathable" construction ....

So in your place I would use the multilayer as a vapor barrier. But, with an immobile air gap of 2 cm on either side of the multilayer, and not only on one side .... the reflection must be as much that of the cold as the hot ...

The idea is therefore to connect each strip of IMR (thin reflector "insulator") together with an overlap of 10 cm, tape with special aluminum tape. You go around the trailer, wall ceiling (see even if you can floor) and if you do not have the floor in imr, you stick scotch (good real scotch at 25 _30 euros the roll app not jerk off stuff at 5 euros which will peel off after not even a year ... same for the glue (there are now some without formaldeide or various pollutants ..) kind look at siga primur ...

of course you will go around each frame with tape which is also fine so as not to allow a cm3 of air to pass behind the imr. Basically you will seal your trailer from the inside ...

You will say to me, yes but how will I breathe me?

And well magic of nature obliges (you will have taken the time to chopper genr esur merco tribe) the guide of arrangement of camping car made by the afnor, there is very well indicated the methods of calculations to dimension the opening mandatory for ventilation in the upper and lower parts, to renew the air ....

Because condensation is also a story of lack of air renewal;) ...

So you say to yourself, well yeah but I'm going to heat the birds?

the answer is yes my friend , that's why in the house the idea of ​​a double flow is an advantage (advantage especially when the air control is well done in parenthesis , to give an idea of ​​a house that does not meet bbc standards at least regarding air permeability will see the efficiency of a high efficiency double flow (90% at least) reduced to less than 70% or even 60%, suddenly make the very expensive purchase of such a creature useless).

In your case the double flow will not necessarily be necessary of course ... you will especially have to properly size the mandatory ventilation surfaces.

FYI, a heater is sized to compensate for the losses due to the lack of insulation, air renewal, thermal bridge, residential climate (in the case of a trailer take the coldest climate of course, if it does not roll not, imagine putting a mass stove is not heresy;), already done by a friend in a yurt on a trailer ...

So, for my part I would do so:

cork between upright and veneered against oak

Installation of the IMR well glued or and tape depending on the location (look siga primur he gives booklets with a lot of explanations when to the effective way of making fittings on frames for example.

against battening on the uprights of 50 * 50 mm, with half rafters like 25 * 50 mm, thus creating a space for reflection in the internal part and also serving as a technical sheath for the passage of the various electric cables (which avoids you pierce the vapor barrier;)) ...

if you pierce the vapor barrier to pass something like pipes, cable etc, you can put big patch cut in a thin air chamber for example that you will tape to the imr, a small hole and you force the passage of the cable or pipes through suddenly you have a tight connection ...

If there is a sheath that communicates with the ext. plug the inside otherwise you can see for yourself that air will pass inside ...

once the counter battening is halted, you hunt for the hole (for a BBC type house of 100 m² roughly the maximum area of ​​holes must be around the surface of a credit card;), I let you imagine what you you're going to be entitled to get something performing), you plate what you want as internal dubbing. depending on whether the trailer will move or not, you may be able to choose to tackle with fermacell to have mass that will help you store a little heat, and which will be well soundproofed ...


early HS:

As for the wood stove, put some firebrick or something around it to store heat again which will diffuse more slowly ...
if you are connected to the electrical network, personal the idea of ​​a pellet stove is not necessarily a bad idea;) ... you will see a bag of pellet is much easier to store than a load of logs;) ...: p ... and then it is efficient, more than a log stove, faster heated and also programmable;) ... everything benefits ... in a pellet stove c 'is the ignition resistor that really eats current, the fans consume very little, a set of dimensioned battery should therefore do the trick (especially if the stove is without forced air, so there will only be one fan to rotate like 30w ...) the ignition being possible to do without a candle, provided the temperature sensor on the combustion gas fan is mistaken (deceiving absolutely does not mean deleting of course because 'is a safety device among other things this probe).
For it to work well you have to provide a casing as for a stove, even if the horizontal outlet is possible (depending on the stove the information is given by the manufacturer, generally this sound of the stove says waterproof because, in case of problems it there is no draft and that can be dangerous if the CO enters the accommodation instead of going outside ...) personally I prefer to have a tubing of at least 2m (it's really mini), and 3m in the case of a wood stove (otherwise you will struggle for lighting t the proper functioning of the stove in the inter season, not cold enough outside so not enough draft ...)

end of Hs

see you later for the following questions;) ...

[combimaison]

Hi, and thank you for your complete response.

Having worked in the timber frame houses sector, I can see very well what insulation process you are talking about. The houses I worked in were made this way:

(from memory, from outside to inside)

_ Plaster

_ Wood wool (6cm)

_OSB

_ Frame

_ Vapor barrier

_ placo

With us, there are three snags ... Time, budget and space.

The weather: We have been living for two years in a caravan of the 80s of 17m², which takes the cold on all sides (especially the ground), and sometimes the water when it is raining hard. We are expecting a child, the trailer must be ready fairly quickly. We do everything ourselves, according to our respective pro lives.

The budget: We have a little money to make our trailer, but we are not Rothschild either.

Space: Reducing the width of the trailer, even if only two centimeters on each side (4cm in total) does not delight us too much.

As said above, living in a poorly insulated caravan, we know, we don't want to do the same again.

We have around 100m² of insulation to lay, if we had to create a 2cm air gap between the CP veneer and the multilayer, it would take us a long time to lay a 2cm strip on the entire existing structure , moreover we would lose space (very precious in a small space).

The idea is therefore to do as said at the beginning:

(From outside to inside)

_ Galvanized sheet (1mm)

_ Oak frame (5cm) whose interstices are filled with cork (3cm)

_ Multilayer insulation stapled on the oak frame and on the floor * under the parquet.

_ CP plating (3mm) direct on the multilayer

* The soil: It is originally composed of 3 layers.

_ An oak floor visible from the holds (25mm)

_ A layer of polystyrene (20mm)

_ A layer of CP (22mm)

I plan to put direct multilayer on the CP of 22 and lay the teak parquet (15mm) directly on the multilayer.

I tell myself that thus, the insulation will be far from being rotten, surely not the best possible.

Is it stupid to lay the wall cladding directly on the multilayer? To lay the parquet directly on the multilayer?

Is it money thrown out of windows to insert multilayer between cork and veneer? Between the CP of 22 from the ground and the parquet?

Here are some photos of the trailer, including one of the empty interior where you can see the frame: http://blog.flat4ever.com/restaurations ... 5+%21.html

[bidouille23]

Hi ;
Nice PL trailer ... I expected a trailer ;) ... kind with a horse in front of it is at least 4 horses .... in short .. great potential ...


I really like it starts like this , but I assure you you are not the only one ...

then I'll make it simple:

Is it stupid to lay the wall cladding directly on the multilayer?

in my opinion yes, and with regard to efficiency tests and the current break standards yes ... In thin reflective insulation, there is thin insulation it is on but reflector is also part of the name ... c is by what it works by reflection ... I let you guess what happens once we plate on it (whether horizontally or vertically) ... it does not work much ... you keep nevertheless the vapor barrier function (and not the vapor barrier not the same, not to be confused) this has the condition of having a neat break with glued / taped fittings ...

Is it money thrown out of windows to insert multilayer between cork and veneer

It's up to you ... if you prefer to heat and have condensation for sure ...
Reread my previous message, I think you can take the time to understand everything, it will not be lost;) ...
Sisi I insist;) ...

and between the cp of 22 and the ground ...

I will summarize by saying that if it is to put something to say that we have put something yes we throw money out the window, now if the break is made in a certain logic and following a pre-established strategy, this is not a break at a loss ...

Space: Reducing the width of the trailer, even if only two centimeters on each side (4cm in total) does not delight us too much .... if we had to create a vacuum of 2cm between the plating in CP and multilayer, it would take us a long time to lay a 2cm batten on the entire existing structure, moreover we would lose space (very precious in a small space).

What to say more if you are persuaded of what you say goes for nothing ...

You have to define everything ...

Should you be sedentary or not? climates envisaged?
Defined everything before, remove everything you can, compress the rest ... and take the example of current vehicles in terms of storage, they are often very logical and practical, and allow a real saving of space ...

Say that 4 cm will eat your space, I will make the effort to make you believe that I agree;), then I tell you put in 2 ... 2cm on both sides being the minimum for a drinking operation of the IMR, with in addition on both sides of the stagnant air blades if possible (I repeat for me the interest is to combine the reflection function with that of vapor barrier) ...

In fact it will especially be necessary that you face a choice ... so look at the insulation coefs, the thermal conductivity of the materials and you will see that certainly 3 cm is the basis of an insulation, but the air control in have the complement without which we cannot say that the insulation is made ...

Finally tell me that paused battens would take a long time, pushes me to say that you probably have not ready to attack the exterior paint ...

Seriously, take a pneumatic stapler, you imprint it or you rent it for a day with its compressor ...

Then you buy either pre-cut or you cut, strips in triply (kind triply nature without polluting chemical glue), 0.9 cm which is therefore flexible enough to fit the curves ...

You staple a first layer, and then staple a second with 25mm or 30mm staples for the second layer (and kind 15 to 20 for the first ... kind staple to fermacell ... when you staple your staple must be horizontal and not vertical, suddenly it will move away because pushed by the fibers of the wood (vertically it comes straight and therefore tears easily).

The longest result is to cut the staples ...
everyone thinks going fast fast fast, so either you are super used to doing what you plan to do, or you master the principles with your fingertips, or you take more time to do things well ... with materials that go well ...

The time you will take before you will recover it after ...

When? well when you do not need to redo, when you do not need to change the ends that come to be rotten by the fleet, etc etc ...

Where you will save time is to really establish your needs, honestly establish what you are able to do, and finally calculate according to your budget what you can have ...

And to finish where you will save time is by using the right tools in the right place ... very often we say that it will do without it, but when we watch the time go by we realize that we are renting machine would have been a great help ... especially small stuff like a compressor and a stapler.

Finally what you put in the insulation you find in comfort of life, and in economy of heating ...

It's up to you, if you are looking for a consensual answer and ultimately just an approval, then I am sorry to tell you that it is not with me that you will have it ...

After the "quickly quickly quickly" come the "if I had known" ... "and shit" that's when you have to undo what you did quickly, and do CH..er when you pay double the price to change what must be ... and Put..n when you curdle them in winter and that you will have the stove on permanently to be warm ...
The list is by no means exhaustive, of course;) ...

you have room to do something good, take advantage of it, it is not by putting teak that we have something good, it is better to put good scotch tape which will ensure you an effective bonding for a long time, or a good imr, or cleats, or many other things ... teak being for me the icing on the cake ....

When you tell me that you don't have the budget for rotchield but that you talk to me about teak parquet has something like 80 euros mini per m² (fairly low pro price), my idea is that you don't make concessions or and priority in the right place (except if you got it for free or almost this teak) ... Now it's your life and your money ...

Pleasure of the eyes quickly achieved or pleasure of life in the long term with a job well done (which requires time except to be specialized in it or very accustomed)? that is the question ...


see you

[combimaison]

Hi, and thank you for the time you spend responding. I understand and share your point of view, even if it means doing it right now rather than having to do it again in ten months.

Indeed it is not a trailer, nor a PL trailer for that matter, but a fairground caravan. It was bought new in 1965 by a fairground couple who lived in it for 35 years. This caravan has traveled approximately 900 km, from fairgrounds to fairgrounds between France, Belgium and Spain. It was entirely insulated with glass wool. The wool was obviously completely packed / dead when we emptied the caravan. No trace of condensation behind.

Not being lovers of glass wool, we chose cork as insulation. We found on the right corner, a plan at € 500 for 120m² for 1m x 50cm cork sheets in 30mm thickness ( http://materiaux-ecologiques.kenzai.fr/ ... cermi.html )

Once the 30mm cork sheets are cut / encrusted between the uprights of the oak frame, there remains 2cm since the thickness of our uprights is 5cm.

The idea was "to imprison this void by plating multilayer on the uprights and plating our CP directly on the multilayer.
Was it a good idea? Apparently you don't think so.

The idea of ​​the multilayer was a simple idea, we did not stop on this product, but absolutely want an additional insulation, because we think that 30mm of cork will not be enough to guarantee us an acceptable thermal comfort, as much in summer as in winter.

Creating a 2cm air gap between the CP plating and the multilayer is certainly a very professional solution, but does not appeal to us. Losing 2cm on the right side + 2cm on the left side over a length of 11,50m, fatally it makes you lose space, very precious in a confined habitat. (I don't know if you imagine). In addition, to create this air space we would need approximately 260 linear meters of 20mm battens (not counting the floor, so just walls and ceilings), then bending it over the arches, placing it etc ... No time , nor the budget to buy 260ml of cleats.

So let's abandon the idea of ​​multilayer and thin reflective insulation. What thin insulation could complement our cork and ensure that there will never be condensation in the partitions facing the outside?

FYI, we found a plan at € 350 for 35m² of solid merbau parquet (same as teak but less time-consuming to write), or € 10 per m².
No, we are not believers, we do a lot of research on cheap plans and on recovered plans.

[combimaison]

One of the reasons we chose cork is that it is breathable.
Could a 5mm layer of cork stapled on our uprights before CP plating be a solution?

[bidouille23]

Hello ,

I like it better when you speak like that sir;) ...

Develop the potential of your caravan (crazy , for a caravan it's a crazy thing ) ...

so I'm going to take up a point or two that must have escaped you in my explanations (too long no doubt ... I admit it's a lot to understand suddenly ...)


I begin:

For cork nothing to say it is a good material ...

For his breathing frankly we do not care because your outer sheet metal walls are waterproof ....;) ...
On the other hand, cork is rot-proof and phonic, in addition to being a good insulator ... so everything benefits ...


I take the IMR (thin reflective insulation also called multilayer):

it will not be that to isolate , in my idea if you want to be sure of not having any condensation (except to create a true current of air which will naturally drive out the stale air charged with humidity of course, and therefore part of the heat too ... not beneficial not pleasant when you get up in the morning is that it curdles seriously ... believe me I know what I'm talking about;) I used the thing and I still do it ... truck, mobile home, van. ..)

So use the IMR as a vapor barrier is a good solution for my taste, and in addition it will strengthen the insulation ...

Let's say that life is made of compromise, suddenly if you keep between 2 cm and IMr of air c good ...

Between interior plating and IMR, goes to 1 cm or to 0 at worst of the worst ... It is not a fortune I repeat it to you especially if you look well on lbc ... you will find osb panels of 0.9 cm, once cut into strips, you have something flexible that can match the rounded edges ... All fixed by stapling ... fast can be expensive and very effective ...

Suddenly you no longer lose the 2cm * 11.5m (I remain on the notice nevertheless that 0.04 * 11.5 = 0.46m² it's still not the sea to drink but, well if you insist ...) by dividing by two you only lose 0.23 m² ...), personally my space saving in a rolling vehicle is mainly at the level of storage and layout tips ... (bed which is placed on the ceiling, which is stored in a drawer etc ...)

In a house as in anything else when we make an insulation we will be subjected to the same constraints roughly, so air control is one of the big constraints ...

In your case you have a waterproof enclosure so do not aim to breathe materials it is useless ... at worst you will end up smashing your oak below the body sheet ... a hardened wood and in the dark is a miracle for insects, a boon for mushrooms ...

your condensation will not be on the oak behind the insulation but on the sheet between the oak and the sheet ... it is the sheet the cold spot not the oak ...

suddenly it is below that you can see if there has been condensation, and at the halos if the oak does not have its tannins too dark preventing to really see what could have happened ...

no 3 cm will certainly not be enough ... it is the mini to have a real start of insulation ... I confirm it especially in winter ...

advantage of the IMR in summer (I admit that it is effective .... no complaints in this context of use) ...


I therefore insist on the fact that you should consider installing a vapor barrier ... but you do as you feel ....
But let's say 3 days max you will have paused your amounts, 1 day cutting the OSB into strips, 2 days break if you stop coffee often ... otherwise 1 day break (at the stapler of course). ..
therefore between 3 and 2 days in total.

So that brings me to your idea of ​​doing things well, it's a good method that I'm not giving you a crappy thing ... You made a good deal with your cork and your parquet pays for them thoroughly ... you will find your investment of time in comfort of life, especially with a little one arriving ... otherwise expect to heat a lot ...

The simple pause of an air control will allow you to heat more efficiently ...

There are coherent pause modes and others not .... as we say we have no money but we have ideas ...;) ... it's much stronger and much more enriching; ) ...

At worst, you can put your layer of 5mm of cork as planned but in this case, you put a layer of poliane (waterproof plastic) that you will attach to the tape and staple (classic staple 12mm / 10 wide for example 10 / 10 mini), and then you plate on it (I'm not fond of veneers against vapor barriers but good ... saving space requires according to your wish, it will still be very effective in the end and durable ... at worst it is your finishing cp which will pick up ... not yet too serious in comparison to the structure which could be touched in other cases ...

On the other hand, go and get the AFNOr guide to camping layout because in terms of compulsory ventilation, it is in the end this ventilation that will allow the vicarious air to be properly evacuated ... and keep your construction sustainable ...

the same for the floor a couch of poliane, and the same for the ceiling, and you tape all these walls together ...

then you go around the frames (and skylights) with tape too to connect the poliane ...

I insist on the scotch, do not hesitate to buy good real scotch, it certainly costs a bit but, at least it will not come off in 2 years or less .... no orange "hiding tape" "it will not hold .... a caravan in the sun it heats up, the scotch of poor quality, does not like the heat and comes off, if in addition you give it a dose of water, I do not give expensive your work ... which would be a shame in the end ...

personal in finishing cp I put 0.9 mm above it is heavy and useless below it is too fragile ...

Mastock will see for the panels it also delivers the prices are nice ... on the other hand if you can go to see it is better sometimes in ctp there are surprises (not good) like at bricomerdo for example ...;)

Think unification , all the walls must act as one in the end by their bonding tape (with 10 cm of overlap between the ....

The glue is also good for the frames, but I thought I noticed that they have pvc, so the tape is much better ...

Degrease the frames before taping ...


For your stove if you can target pellet, but that's a detail ... depending on whether you have power or not ... much more practical and less restrictive for the fuel to transport ...

has yes the advantage of putting a layer of 5mm of cork in addition will correct a chouilla the thermal bridges between amount and cork panels of 3cm .... therefore advantage also ... Otherwise something deu kind styrodur thin sheet of 1cm d 'thick for example (hard found, the 2 cm is more common but it must be ...), and suddenly you tape your styro like a vapor ...;) ....
E you top it for finishing .... basically you replace the poliane and the 5mm of cork with stryro ..

advantage, thermal break + additional insulation + vapor barrier + reinforced soundproofing + very affordable cost + easy cutting + stapling possible see pointing with flat head nails like roofing nail ... just a few nails to hold the plates the times that you tape, and that you plate over ...

disadvantage: you always lose your 0.46 m² ...

I wanted to make it short ... Lost ...

a plus do not hesitate for the following questions ... put me numbers to the questions it will be easier ...