How not to ruin heating?

[dirk pitt]

The boiler operation time is that of the burner, it is the time during which fuel is burned.

This sentence shows the incomprehension of the operation of a boiler and different times: the one to heat the water in the boiler, then the one to heat the house by circulation of this hot water, much longer !!

I will ask you to be a little more modest and respectful of the skills of other members of the forum.
I know very well what the whole professional literature calls the boiler operating time: it is the burner's time. this is the time during which the fuel is burned. it is the only data which makes it possible to compare the efficiencies because it conditions the consumption. in the end, that's the important thing!

I stop there this discussion which goes in circles while a84 sought advice.

[a84]

Several comments (like that, it will refocus a little on the subject and it will avoid fights):

. I do not intend to improve my current boiler because I want to move the boiler room to enlarge a room; and considering the size of the beast, it would be very expensive to put it back. So I dismiss all your solutions, yet very relevant, improvement of the existing.

. I read everywhere that the combined solar system was unattractive, considering the investment (20 000 euros in general) and the coverage of heating needs (maximum 50%). And I believe that the links above only concern the ECS and not heating.

“3m2 of sensors for less than € 400, I don't think it's very expensive. And PER tube feeding is inexpensive, easy to do yourself, if necessary. With 12m2 of sensors of this type (1600 €), we must already eliminate any expenditure of hot water apart from a hard winter and a good part of the heating. "

These figures seem very very low? Is it possible to develop a little?


. What is a three-way valve? It's used for ? How is it installed? It's expensive ?

. The windows are already caulked and the chimney has a shutter door.

. A thermostat is already installed: it is a small wheel with numbers (from 20 to 90, so I guess they are degrees)


Thank you all for your well-documented messages.

[bernardd]

. I read everywhere that the combined solar system was unattractive, considering the investment (20 000 euros in general) and the coverage of heating needs (maximum 50%). And I believe that the links above only concern the ECS and not heating.

From the moment the water is 60 ° C or 80 ° C, no problem to use it everywhere.

. “3m2 of sensors for less than € 400, I don't think it's very expensive. And PER tube feeding is inexpensive, easy to do yourself, if necessary. With 12m2 of sensors of this type (1600 €), we must already eliminate any expenditure of hot water apart from a hard winter and a good part of the heating. "

These figures seem very very low? Is it possible to develop a little?

The best thing is that you go to one of the shops I linked, one in Avignon, the other not too far near Aix.

http://www.bricodepot.fr/avignon/chauff ... au-solaire

http://www.bysun.fr/Capteur_solaire_sou ... _28-1.html

As you will see for yourself, and after, a discussion will be more effective. They must also have valves 3cities :-)

http://www.bricodepot.fr/avignon/node/479355

There is nothing difficult, it's mostly common sense, plumbing and heating. The important thing is not to be impressed :-)

[dirk pitt]

that you put solar, very well but you will still need a production of hot water in addition for heating.
you are firing the old boiler, very well. I take my solution of departure not expensive: you buy a boiler recent oil of occas (without the burner if the one that you have is powerful) and you improve your regulation by putting a valve 3 journeys pilotéee by external probe.
that said, to make a combined solar system with boiler in lifting being simple amateur ... I think you risk disappointments or even disappointments unless you are well advised.

[bernardd]

I think you risk disappointments or even disappointments unless you are well advised.

The less we understand, the more we have setbacks: hence the importance of trying to understand :-)

Because how to evaluate the quality of a council?

[dedeleco]

So, you are not totally penniless to be able to recover the place occupied by the gigantic boiler.
It is necessary to move it to remove it, and to reconnect it only costs a few pipes to lengthen and totally independent welds and wires the size of the "beast", which is much simpler than a modern boiler !!
So, I do not understand the logic of this sentence.

and considering the size of the beast, it would be very expensive to put it back. So I dismiss all your solutions, yet very relevant, improvement of the existing.

The choice of heating means deserves further thought, because it is necessary to guess the prices in the future of gas, oil, pellets, on 10 to 20 years.
In my opinion fuel oil fixes the price of gas, and the price of gas is less expensive, when the price of fuel explodes, more city gas requires the least care and maintenance (do not take the gas in tank, 2 times more expensive), we do not take care of anything, very little sweeping, boiler that never gets dirty, run all winter without taking care of it and so to take an energy that is likely to be expensive, gas is the choice with the least problems.
Oil will disappear faster than gas (in theory) and therefore price risk with astronomical values ​​in some years (factor 2) unlike gas.
Watch the operation of the entire installation in the house, because a good boiler installed cheaply, with an improper installation, can have a real catastrophic performance, especially check that all the thermal regulation is well designed, with the basic principles that I explained for an improvement of your boiler: operating time, water temperature, etc.
the problem with pro and installers is that sometimes there are majestic mistakes.
There is 20 at 30 years and even 10 years; they installed boilers with bad yields and errors that are claimed to be correct at the moment. There is no reason that this does not continue in hidden form, as in the past, because the interest of the pro is not that of the users, it is even the opposite!
The user is looking for the cheapest to use, and pro seek the maximum money, so expensive boilers for questionable benefits, boilers to repair and change often (30 years without fail is ruinous for a company!), Prevent all DIY by the user with standards, microprocessors, incomprehensible regulation, complex boiler, expensive maintenance contract (look at how many years the maintenance contract comes back to the price of the boiler), etc.
This state of affairs exists for everything, car, medicine, useless or dangerous drugs, etc ... It is interesting to have a maximum of knowledge and to understand with common sense, if not sometimes scams !!
The good old plumbers make beautiful welds but have huge problems with electronics, and I remember plumbers unable to run the electrical part and the regulation of my boiler, to the point that I had to do it myself to have heating (engineer in a field completely different) !!!
So with your new boiler, become proficient in heating and regulation, and do not accept arguments that your common sense does not understand and can not check !!!
I totally approve Bernard, principle that I apply, but it is not easy, even engineer!

It is good to keep a fireplace to heat the wood cheap by putting a good insert, to reduce heating costs, and withstand a heating failure that lasts a long time with recent boiler, with room to change and long to arrive .

The solar can be put in several inexpensive steps by installing oneself, hot water then auxiliary heating, which works well in autumn and spring, especially in Avignon full of sun. The economy can be huge. A simple pipe on the roof with black background and glass all beast, gives hot water even in winter !!
but obviously, you have to make the effort to learn and understand.

Answer to unanswered questions about dirk pitt !!
pro who gets excited but does not explain the basic, quite typical of some pros.
If you go to a wholesale store for professionals, it is interesting to know the vocabulary of these pros (for material not found elsewhere!) !!

What is a three-way valve? It's used for ? How is it installed? It's expensive ?

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanne
A three way lane is a faucet that connects one pipe to one of the other two pipes, to direct the hot water to the right place; the valve is controlled by a small electric motor that is powered by relays. So 3 routes.
Example to heat the sanitary water in the balloon connects the hot water coming from the boiler to the balloon, then when it is necessary to heat the house one connects to the central heating and the balloon is no longer heated!
It's not very expensive, 50 to 300 €, more manpower.
http://www.cath.fr/boutique/index.php?cPath=147
read:
http://www.systemed.fr/Forum/forum_post ... =5704&PN=2
read for example of problems:
http://forums.futura-sciences.com/depan ... voies.html
There are proportional valves that allow to send in both at a time as needed, but the management is complex with microprocessor, and not useful in my opinion.
Any complex system with microprocessor makes prisoner of the repairer, even of the manufacturer and in case of breakdown seen the delays of repair, incompetence of the installer, need to wait for the answer of the manufacturer, wait for the piece not available often (just-in-time) , leaves you without heating a lot of days, more circuits to change are expensive, unable to verify that the professional does not scam you by accusing the circuit board and you never know if he is incompetent or scammers! The dream for the pros !!
I remember having to solve a problem of this type myself, on a new circuit (replacing a dead by the lightning) looking for and finding a small switch to handle for it to work, which saved me hours of travel (80Km each time) and tests or circuits unnecessarily changed, in fact at least 1000 € !!
I was warned, your system is no longer (3 years later!), And so this big circuit board is not found (miracle that we found one!) And next time we must change the whole system of heating !! Typical !!
The 3 channel dirk pitt valve is not clear in its operation with only explanation:

you improve your regulation by putting an 3voies valve controlled by external probe.

It seems that it corrects an error of a similar system without this 3 channel valve that had big problems, forgetting part of the circuit, again an example how we could sell an improvement with big errors, by the past !!!
The outer probe for house with big thermal inertia (walls thick like yours) makes it possible to detect the chills (or warmings) before they feel 2 days later in the house too cold and to avoid heating (or to stop) too much late in disaster.
But obviously, it is complex, so poorly designed or set, its operation can be with big problems, believing guessing a future actually false!
I am not a specialist in boilers, but given the complexity of any thermal regulation (I have built experimental high temperature electric furnaces with their precise regulation, with PID), it is easy to have an accurate adjustment without proper realize !!

A thermostat is already installed: it is a small wheel with numbers (from 20 to 90, so I guess they are degrees)

Where is this thermostat?
in a room of the house in principle, check that on 20 ° C, it is about T = 20 ° C in the house and nothing else to a degree !!
A thermostat must have an adjustable hysteresis, difference between T max and T minimum !!
If too low the boiler does not stop starting and stop and the output drops.
Unfortunately no commercial thermostat provides this possibility !!
The boiler must have an internal thermostat regulating the internal temperature of the hot water by adjusting the burner, otherwise it overheats and we put in the trash a lot of heat in the chimney !!
This temperature must be adjustable from 30 ° C to 80 ° C as needed, not the same for 13 ° C and -18 ° C !! !!
I saw a boiler (beautiful family) less than 10ans, famous, without this possibility! Absurd.

Finally, if you do not want to spend unnecessarily, learn the basics of the technique, the vocabulary, by checking that your common sense understands well, and by mistrusting your feelings and impressions, like a big boiler is hard to move when it is not harder than removing it to throw it away because of its weight! Removing is even more difficult because maybe it must be mounted on stairs!
Reconnecter some pipes is not very difficult a few welding, which will be necessary to know how to do, if you mount the same solar.
Finally the explanations are long, because to learn requires a lot of explanations and work and professionals if you do not know, sometimes take the opportunity to tell anything, or even change the boiler for a fuse to change (as shown on the TV several times!) !!

[nofuel]

hi 84, instead of taking the lead on the solar or this or that boilers ... we must not forget that the best energy is the one that is not consumed! it does not suit you, I think not at all, but before all things it will be necessary to isolate your house, you have no choice because despite what you can hear your walls thick or not it does not isolate, there in the summer a feeling of freshness because the cool goes up along your walls but in winters it's bad, the heat (whatever it is) gets off! you can possibly isolate a wall from the inside and the others from the outside, it's done, but in any case I repeat it you have no choice, because even with the cheapest energy you will continue to use 3 foix too !!!

[dedeleco]

because even with the cheapest energy you will continue to use 3 foix too !!!

This statement is likely to be inaccurate:
The house caulked against the mistral can already see its reduced losses strongly (to be quantified) and if the boiler sends its smoke to 300 ° C outside in the chimney, you gain an 2 factor by reducing this smoke temperature lost without changing anything, except by decreasing the power of the burner and the regulation of T of the heating water.
To check also by measuring this temperature and trying.
The old house with thick walls is at a temperature of 13 to 15 ° C without heating, nor leaks by mistral, it is much better than a recent house which is 3 8 ° C without heating !!
Have you checked this, 2 days without heating.
This reduces your heating.
Insulation not very thick inside is enough to improve.

The cheapest energy is free wood thrown away in garbage dump or trailing rotting !!

To renovate an old house, see the very detailed tips to assimilate
http://www.fiabitat.com/
http://www.fiabitat.com/etudes-thermiques.php

[sspid14]

The old house with thick walls is at a temperature of 13 to 15 ° C without heating, nor leaks by mistral, it is much better than a recent house which is 3 8 ° C without heating !!
Have you checked this, 2 days without heating.

Apart from the difference in inertia I do not see how you can achieve this and again the insulation in the recent house must allow to keep the heat. And if it is the inertia that plays then to heat an old house will require much more time and energy than a recent house.

[dedeleco]

sspidd
14 writes:

Apart from the difference in inertia I do not see how you can achieve this and again the insulation in the recent house must allow to keep the heat. And if it is the inertia that plays then to heat an old house will require much more time and energy than a recent house.

You must have slept a winter in such an old house or castle with walls at the base of 1 m in the south west as me child in winter, without heating, to find that the ground soil at the annual temperature 13 ° C to15 ° C conducts its heat through the walls as in a cellar or cave and can do without heating if we accept this average annual temperature!
In the middle ages we lived almost without heating!
It's a simple form of Canadian well.

Our modern breeze block houses are an aberration, see the passage bury the house on
http://www.fiabitat.com/construction-ma ... atisme.php
www.fiabitat.com who explains it well !!