Frigolite what value K insulation?

[Christophe]

For the kWh / m².an, do the DJU (degree.day I suppose?) Do not intervene somewhere?

Yes it is well unified day.

No, they do not intervene (directly) in the kWh / m².an only consumption, surface and duration (1 year) count.

So you will tell me that the consumption depends on the external T ° and therefore the DJU. Yes and no because the setpoint of indoor T ° of heating is not taken into account (human behavior, we will consume much more 24 ° C than 19 ° C independently of the insulation of the house).

While it is with the DJU (19 ° C domestic by definition but nothing prevents to calculate DJU to a different T °).

Thus with a calculation in / DJU we take all into account: weather and user behavior. So we can really compare the performance of 2 housing.

Examples: does it make sense to compare the performance in kWh / m².an of an alpine house at 1000m altitude and a mediterranean villa? Obviously not, but that's what everyone does with the DPE ...

By reporting a DPE in /DJU.an, we have a common base and we can really compare the thermal performance of a home!

Only it is more complicated to calculate recess ... but we can also do DJU calculations on very small periods (impossible with kWH / m².year)

For the different economic housing standards, here is a dedicated topic: https://www.econologie.com/forums/normes-et- ... t9153.html

[sspid14]

I guess the use of kWh / m².an is a unit that speaks better to consumers than we are. They know more or less what they will consume with sometimes good surprises (mild winter and / or purchase of sweater) and sometimes bad (winter long and cold and / or T ° int 23 ° C (even at night) )

But, taking into account the consumption / DJU it would be more precise (even if one can not predict exactly the number of DJU to come on the year) because indeed it would take into account the behavior of the user.
..or at least in part because other factors than the indoor temperature are also taken into account. Let us imagine that in a house we leave the windows more easily open to "ventilate" or that a house is in a more windy area or with different free exterior or interior supplies.

I think it's hard to take each factor into account to compare 2 homes ..

[chomich]

Good evening. I resume after an interruption of service of my service provider
Thank you, sspid14, for correcting the definition of passive construction. Even if it does not solve the problem of frigolite!

Christophe, Mar 27 Jul 2010, 22: 3 My apologies for the vagueness of my language. But my notions of mathematics are far from being pushed, and date back to 50 years ago. We were talking about km per hour (and not km per hour) and we wrote kw / h when talking about electric power.
That said, if the consumption announces itself in power multiplied by the duration, you should appreciate my formulation
Now, if such a pedigree forbids me to compete in the discussion, let me know ...
When we talk about passive house, we are interested in a system whose heating needs can not exceed 15 kw per year (it's a power, that?) And per m² (we must be able to compare buildings of size different).
Volume is not taken into account because it is a system, and the standard can be met in a variety of ways: either by decreasing the volume, or by increasing the isolation, etc. is good. The climatic situation is even neglected (in comparison, not in calculations), since the aim is not to encode an element, but to standardize a system. As long as we know how to end up with a building that can do without a heating system and the environmental consequences that result. The goal is not, however, to force people to live in a fridge in winter or a furnace in summer.
That said, calculating the performance of buildings by the PHPP form takes into account the geographical location of construction, and therefore climate data. However, regardless of the situation in the world, the standard is still set at a heating requirement of less than 15 kw / m².year.
It is very satisfying to compute the performance of a building element, but it's totally useless until you've integrated it into a set. We could say that the end justifies the means: whatever the method used, the goal is to do without a highly aggressive element to the environment: the heating of homes.

Sincerely to all

[sspid14]

Thank you, sspid14, for correcting the definition of passive construction. Even if it does not solve the problem of frigolite!

I think that the questions have been answered as best as possible, but I want to hear the question (s) again if there is something that we would have missed.

However, regardless of the situation in the world, the standard is still set at a heating requirement of less than 15 kw / m².year.

You're going to say that you want some but kW / m².an ca does not mean much .. If you need 15kW power per m² in your house, you must have a boiler enrage (and still I weighs my words) and if it's a year and more then it must be expensive to change every year

More seriously, a passive house needs 15kWh / m².an (as already said), and this energy must be brought each year by internal inputs such as inhabitant, machine, stove, .. and external inputs such as rays of the sun

[chomich]

A thousand excuses, I have once again zaped the correct spelling. I correct 15 kWh / m².an, we agree.

However, I wanted to come back to the starting point which was not the passive house, but the performance of the thermotop
the questioning of Jeanluc55 who said
"" thermotop "style panels that would seem to have a" K "coefficient of 0,8 but in frigolite it would surprise me that this coefficient is reached."

a priori, lamba of this thermotop: 0.036, it is what one admits for the extruded polystirene (not expanded = frigolite)

Of course, it does not isolate enormously, and this U = 0,88 is the minimum for the roof of a veranda that may be exposed to the sun often (this is probably its main function) but it is quite correct from the craftsman who used and the company that produced the panels.

[sspid14]

To get a R = 0,8 m².K / W, if we say that Extruded PS at a lambda = 0,042 W / mK, 4 cm of insulation is required (3,36 cm exactly).

If you Expanded PS has a lambda = 0,036 W / mK (at best), it takes 3 cm (2,88 cm exactly).
If you Expensive PS has a lambda = 0,058 W / mK (at worst), it takes 5 cm (4,64 cm exactly).

To obtain a U = 0,8 W / m².K (and thus R = 1,25 m².K / W), 5,25 cm is required for the extruded PS.
It takes 4,5 cm of PS expanded (at best)
It takes 7,25 cm of expanded PS (at worst)

[chomich]

and if the manufacturer of the thermotop announces a U of 0,88 for a thickness of 32 mm, why not believe it? this corresponds to an announced Lambda from 0,036, a value that is entirely compatible with the product.

www.livios.be/fr

Expanded polystyrene foam: 0,033 to 0,042
The main components of expanded polystyrene foam (EPS), also known as 'frigolite', are air and polystyrene granules. The granules are melted under steam to make blocks or large plates.
Extruded polystyrene foam: 0,029 to 0,038
Extruded polystyrene foam (XPS) consists of PS aggregates and additives that are extruded.

www.energie2.arch.ucl.ac.be

type of insulation:
Extruded polystyrene Lambda: 0,035 (W / mK)
Lambda expanded polystyrene: 0,04 (W / mK)

www.bricozone.be

Normal EPS whose lambda is from 0.04 (versus 0.032 for XPS)

[jeanluc55]

A thousand excuses, I have once again zaped the correct spelling. I correct 15 kWh / m².an, we agree.

However, I wanted to come back to the starting point which was not the passive house, but the performance of the thermotop
the questioning of Jeanluc55 who said
"" thermotop "style panels that would seem to have a" K "coefficient of 0,8 but in frigolite it would surprise me that this coefficient is reached."

a priori, lamba of this thermotop: 0.036, it is what one admits for the extruded polystirene (not expanded = frigolite)

Of course, it does not isolate enormously, and this U = 0,88 is the minimum for the roof of a veranda that may be exposed to the sun often (this is probably its main function) but it is quite correct from the craftsman who used and the company that produced the panels.

Well yes ... the subject of the departure had some overflows ....
but not so much off topic.

However, I would like to clarify the reason for my question about this famous "K".
When taking the information, the seller showed me samples of these panels that were part of my roof (I chose this for personal reasons) and in fact when the goods were at home for editing, I noticed a BIG difference between what was shown to me and what was provided.

The sample consisted of 2 lacquered aluminum layers between which there was a layer of 30mm of a very compact foam of blue color.

The panels provided are composed of 2 lacquered aluminum layers between which there is 30mm a beast style white frigolite plate very friable scraping a little with the fingertip (and I did not say the nail !! !!).

Another clarification: if I allow myself to question the honesty of the said trader, it is precisely because these reasons exist (I am far from the kind of guy annoying) but the frames are too short 45mm, j have a 18mm day under my door (!!!!!)
when it rains a little too much the gutter pushes inside my veranda, and I could still add others ...........
but that's not the goal.
The goal is to have as much information as possible to be able to defend myself in front of this kind of merchant who I think took advantage of the fact that I am disabled and thought that I would see only fire.

What else ????

Good day to the readers.

[Christophe]

I think it's hard to take each factor into account to compare 2 homes ..

Absolutely, but I just think that the DJU method is more accurate than the annual method ... thats all folks!

The sample consisted of 2 lacquered aluminum layers between which there was a layer of 30mm of a very compact foam of blue color.

The panels provided are composed of 2 lacquered aluminum layers between which there is 30mm a beast style white frigolite plate very friable scraping a little with the fingertip (and I did not say the nail !! !!).

In my humble opinion: you were shown extruded polystyrene and you got expanded.

The expanded is less good thermally (see figures above) but also cheaper. So that compared to the K (or R thermal and I prefer to talk about R because K, we can confuse with the K dwelling, see above) the expanded is cheaper.

See what you really ordered.

Another clarification: if I allow myself to question the honesty of the said trader, it is precisely because these reasons exist (I am far from the kind of guy annoying) but the frames are too short 45mm, j have a 18mm day under my door (!!!!!)
when it rains a little too much the gutter pushes inside my veranda, and I could still add others ...........
but that's not the goal.

What is the relationship between insulation and chassis?

The goal is to have as much information as possible to be able to defend myself in front of this kind of merchant who I think took advantage of the fact that I am disabled and thought that I would see only fire.

Make us some pictures of installed products and bills and we will tell you what ... precisely ...

[sspid14]

What is the relationship between insulation and chassis?

I think it's just to question the merchant's honesty.

Make us some pictures of installed products and bills and we will tell you what ... precisely ...

Yes, a little more precision on the product promised and the product obtained (technical sheets, photos or other)