Clim reversible Airton in winter: ext. under a greenhouse?

Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ... short thermal comfort. Insulation, wood energy, heat pumps but also electricity, gas or oil, VMC ... Help in choosing and implementation, problem solving, optimization, tips and tricks ...
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Did67
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by Did67 » 29/03/13, 10:53

Christophe wrote:
If this greenhouse does not heat more than 45 ° C in summer, it means that the losses (by conduction, convection and radiation from the greenhouse) are balanced with solar radiation ...thus at 45 ° C one can say that the sun "does not bring" any more "useful" energy inside the greenhouse since the T ° stagnates ...

However if we lower this T °, ​​we can think that the sun will continue to bring calories in the greenhouse ...

This is not good? : mrgreen:


For me, you are still only half there!

a) letting the greenhouse cool down under the outside temp is, in this case, an absurdity, since your heat pump will be less efficient! So to think that then solar energy is better captured is true, but without interest!

b) with regard to the flows themselves and the greenhouse balance:

1) at a given time, the solar energy that enters the greenhouse depends on the solar intensity, the nature and cleanliness of the windows ...

2) Out of the heat pump, the radiation linked to the temperature of the ground, the wall, the air ... radiation at a frequency other than solar radiation at 'sharp (it is very very infrared)

3) It enters or leaves by conduction, air current, energy depending on whether the external temp is lower or higher ...

Normally, outside the heat pump, the results are positive when there is sunlight: a lot of "high temperature" radiation coming in; this captured energy is greater than the sum "losses by conduction + losses by low temperature radiation"; the greenhouse effect, that's it, based on the observation that the frequency of the "input" and "output" radiations is not the same, and that the window retains part of the second, while it leaves enter first ...

But with the temperature rising in the greenhouse, the losses increase, and we always arrive at a balance. In a closed greenhouse, even in the middle of summer, we never reached the boil, even if we can make plants burst !!! It is that the "entries" remain stable, but the "exits" increase

So yes, with your CAP:

a) either you just manage to align the external and internal temp; you eliminate the losses by conduction and by radiation "low temperature" (the incoming BT radiation compensates the outgoing BT radiation); all "input" solar energy is captured by the heat pump ...

b) or you can only lower the temp in the greenhouse (it is 10 ° external, with the sun without PAC it would be 27; with PAC, it is 14): there, in fact, you will have reduced the losses by conduction and by radiation - compared to a greenhouse without PAC -, thus you auars improved the output of your greenhouse; and with that, that of your cap ...

c) either your heat pump cools your greenhouse under the external temperature, and we have already seen that this is absurd; the "infinite reservoir of air at the external temperature" is more "profitable" ... Even if your greenhouse captures even better solar energy + conduction + LV radiation !!!

So I put 50/50. You were both a little right.
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by Christophe » 29/03/13, 10:59

Did67 wrote:a) letting the greenhouse cool down under the outside temp is, in this case, an absurdity, since your heat pump will be less efficient! So to think that then solar energy is better captured is true, but without interest!


That's not really what we said: we said "below" its maximum (equilibrium) temperature! There is actually no point in cooling more than the ambient, everyone has already said and understood it! So a T ° comparator will be set up to regulate the operation ...

I did the energy balances I did yesterday (did you look ??): to heat the room I want I will need between 1/4 and 1/3 of the solar energy radiated in the greenhouse. .which leaves a good margin ... See (if you missed): https://www.econologie.com/forums/post254171.html#254171 and my messages from before ...

And it is this mode of operating balance that must be achieved:

Did67 wrote:b) or you can only lower the temp in the greenhouse (it is 10 ° external, with the sun without PAC it would be 27; with PAC, it is 14): there, in fact, you will have reduced the losses by conduction and by radiation - compared to a greenhouse without PAC -, thus you auars improved the output of your greenhouse; and with that, that of your cap ...


The a) being too "idealistic" and risky to pass quickly in c) ... in fact it will depend on the hysteresis of the regulation.

It will be necessary to cut the air conditioning when the indoor greenhouse / outdoor delta drops below X ° C ... I think that X = 4 or 5 ° C (as your example) will be a good compromise between calorie recovery / optimized COPA ...

After nothing beats practice to know if good idea or FBI :)
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by Did67 » 29/03/13, 11:49

Yes, I followed.

But in my opinion, even corrected and brought down to the month, this is way too crass. Your results will be judged almost to the nearest half hour - even if your walls play a little bit the role of a buffer (but with, in my opinion, too low an effusivity compared to the very low energy stock in the air greenhouse ...). At 10 am, you will still be "negative". At noon, more than positive ... and at 15 pm negative ... On a beautiful day. And you "chop" that with the cloudy passages!

Here. I don't always want to be a candy breaker.

And if I reason a lot "intuitively", I am not in a position to "quantify / model" my feelings!

I understood that you wanted to "experiment". Otherwise, I would have discussed, because in my opinion, you will considerably reduce the operating time of your heat pump to the point that I wonder about its interest (except expedition!).

There, I just wanted to clarify the question of heat fluxes in the greenhouse, where the question of incoming / outgoing radiation at low frequency had been squizzed ... And that reducing the balance sheet to only solar radiation and / or conduction is insufficient ...

In spring, if it is not more than 30 or 35 ° in a closed greenhouse, it is because the solar contributions are totally "lost" by radiation and conduction! This shows the importance of these outgoing flows! To neglect them is to neglect an energy equivalent to solar radiation!
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by Christophe » 29/03/13, 12:07

Did67 wrote:I understood that you wanted to "experiment". Otherwise, I would have discussed, because in my opinion, you will considerably reduce the operating time of your heat pump to the point that I wonder about its interest (except expedition!).


Why reduce? If we open the doors when it is too cold in the greenhouse? (interest in this mode then almost zero, already it will be protected from cold winds, but gain in mid seasons as I have said several times)

According to the thermal balance (of the room it is supposed to heat) it would take about 3000kWh or about 800h annual ... less if we decrease the set point in winter (15 or 16 ° for a cellar are more than enough!)

So I think it is to be tested, What is the risk? Finally weak and if not good I will make sure to place the battery in a place so that it is movable outside the greenhouse ...
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by Did67 » 29/03/13, 12:32

Christophe wrote:
Why reduce? If we open the doors when it is too cold in the greenhouse? (interest in this mode then almost zero, already it will be protected from cold winds, but gain in mid seasons as I have said several times)

..


Rather than mechanizing / automating the closing / opening, you did not want to put your heat pump on a thermostat which only activated it when the delta t is positive ???

In that case, I think you're going to reduce the uptime considerably, to something like 11:30 am / 15:XNUMX pm on sunny days. So to "cross" with the "rate of presence of clouds" on this niche ...

It's a bit like CESI. Solar energy is the curves you give. The "pubs" say "to x% savings. "And when you observe your CESI, you realize that in general, the collection will have been zero or .... very low!

Thinking aloud, I think you should combine an automatism:

a) a thermostat as indicated above
b) a mechanism which "simulates" the length of the day and opens two doors outside of that (on my GPS, there is a beast algorithm which modifies the background screen; black at night, lit by day; it is B ^ tly the species of "sinusoidal curve which describes the length of the days for a given parallel).
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by Christophe » 29/03/13, 13:49

Did67 wrote:Rather than mechanizing / automating the closing / opening, you did not want to put your heat pump on a thermostat which only activated it when the delta t is positive ???


Well yes ... That's what I've been saying since before ... only if in winter there is no sun and a need for heating, then there will be no other choice but to open the greenhouse and meet again in "classic" configuration with the difference of being partially protected from the wind ...

Well, I think it's time to act, right? :)
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Alain G
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by Alain G » 29/03/13, 14:49

Ho there!


Hi Christopher!

You have to have a greenhouse to know what you can recover |


My greenhouse rises to 70 ° C on the ceiling and this with the door open, the amount of energy to recover is enormous, since I heat my pool with the greenhouse I have a better yield and taste with my vegetables, even in weather cloudy and to my surprise the greenhouse heats up.

No need for anything complicated to exploit this heat with the Air conditioning, you simply install a thermostat in the greenhouse which stops the air conditioning when the temperature becomes too cold, it avoids all the hitch of unnecessary automation, so you use the wires of the indoor probe that you type in series with the greenhouse thermostat that turns it off.

I say go get loose and experiment!

I cannot because it is too far from the house!

You could also recover this heat and pass it directly into the house but you would have a problem of humidity and perhaps of mold which is not desirable so the air conditioning remains a good solution.
: Mrgreen:
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by Christophe » 29/03/13, 15:21

Alain G wrote:My greenhouse rises to 70 ° C on the ceiling and this with the door open, the amount of energy to recover is enormous, since I heat my pool with the greenhouse I have a better yield and taste with my vegetables, even in weather cloudy and to my surprise the greenhouse heats up.


Facing south, chances are it would rise more and when I say 45 ° C it's not above but about 1 m above the ground ... where I had placed a thermometer ...

Can you tell us more about your editing? (photo diagram?)
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by Alain G » 29/03/13, 16:00

Hi Christopher!

I have to leave but you can meanwhile find some info on the subject of the greenhouse in Cortejuan.

See you!
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by Did67 » 29/03/13, 16:47

Alain G wrote:
You could also recover this heat and pass it directly into the house but you would have a problem of humidity and perhaps of mold which is not desirable so the air conditioning remains a good solution.
: Mrgreen:


You then have to go through a VMC DF type exchanger (but it's expensive!).
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