Heating system change AFTER insulation

[sterua32]

Hello everybody
future buyer of an old house of 120m2, I would like to change the current heating system which is gas tank ...
I saw that it was very expensive, and I would therefore like to change to a more economical and if possible more ecological heating system (so no oil, no gas, or even no wood ...)
the energy classification of the house is in E
this is why I have already planned to redo the insulation (plasterboard + 240mm glass wool, the windows having been changed by double glazing) and I am also thinking of redoing the insulation of the roof with glass wool of the same thickness.
knowing that I have small cast iron radiators, what heating system I could put?
I got a craftsman to do a quote for geothermal energy, and he told me that given the condition of the house, it would not be profitable and that it would be better to install a high-temperature cap so that the water in the radiators can exceed 55 ° C.
do you think he is right? I read that it was not very profitable at hte-temperature, but with the insulation that I will do in any case, do you think that I would need the water to be over 55 ° C ? Or what kind of heating system would you recommend?
(the goal of the game being to be able to benefit from an eco-ptz ...)

thank you all for your future answers

[dedeleco]

Hello,
This good choice:

240mm plasterboard + glass wool,

is the essential in the first place, probably quite expensive external insulation, which divides the thermal losses by more than 5 probably, going to less than 50KWh / m2year.
Heating will become much easier and it would be better to change the radiators if possible, and to have low temperature solar heating, plus additional boiler or wood-burning insert, given the low power required (5000KWh / year at place of more than 25000 !!).
A simple heating by solar hot air and insert or wood stove if clouds, would certainly be sufficient, for much less than a falsely geothermal heat pump with limited lifespan !!

Otherwise, PACs are not ideal, this short life span (even scams sometimes, at 30000 € which never work with a company that goes bankrupt !!), given their complexity and the regulations on PAC fluids which change as weathervanes (I was sold a heat pump with fluid which was going to be banned 3 years later and therefore irreparable after breakdown due to lightning).

Personally, around my home, over 900km, I see so much wood and plants thrown by me and my neighbors (I recover the wood that they would otherwise burn in the open air by smoking myself for days), that I heat myself up with this free wood in an insert for the most part, while keeping the old heating which is only used as a back-up or to keep frost-free, in houses that are much less insulated.

Finally the ideal future solution that actually works in Canada is to store the solar heat wasted in summer for heating in winter !!

With a low-loss house, it is easier and a geothermal heat pump with borehole or Canadian well, sufficiently well sized (very rare, if undersized then usual scam), can be transformed into this storage by preheating this well in summer with summer solar thermal heat and with a very high heat pump efficiency, or even removing the heat pump !!
www.dlsc.ca
https://www.econologie.com/forums/chaleur-d- ... 10828.html
https://www.econologie.com/forums/stockage-d ... 78-40.html

In France it is unknown, misunderstood, despised, wrongly, while it is the future solution to be achieved, because ideal, perpetual, consuming only for the circulator which can be photovoltaic, without CO2 pollution, without combustion dirt , local without transport once completed, lifespan, with virtually no maintenance.
It needs to adapt to the nature of the terrain.

Geothermal energy with PAC is scientifically a false term, a real scam, because it is not geothermal, because this heat in the earth is the solar heat averaged over a year by thermal diffusion from the surface and which gives a temperature 13 at 10 ° C, equal to the average over one to several years !!!
The proof: this temperature increases towards the equator and goes down towards the North Pole falling below zero, for example in Siberia and the true geothermal heat of the earth has a very weak effect on this temperature !!!

A heat pump cools the earth by taking this heat stored over a year at a depth of 2 to 3m and therefore the earth can freeze if the volume of accessible earth is insufficient to provide the necessary heat, and make the heat pump very low efficiency !!!
It is therefore crucial to carefully check the calculation of the volume of earth required over a winter, if you take geothermal energy!
This volume required for a heat pump is much greater than that required for summer to winter storage, because simply the available temperature difference is much lower for a heat pump (5 to 10 ° C at most, before freezing starting from 10 ° C) than for storage at www.dlsc.ca (it is done from 10 ° C to 50 to 60 ° C i.e. 40 ° C to 50 ° C instead of 10 ° C) and therefore the heat pump requires a volume of soil 4 times greater, for the same quantity of thermal energy !!!
With this analysis most of the heat pumps, falsely geothermal, are undersized !! (you need at least more than 1000m3 of earth within 2 to 3m of the geothermal tube, or several hundred meters of tubes).
If geothermal energy is based on an underground water source, it is crucial to verify the real and sufficient circulation of this water over a whole winter !!
The solution www.dlsc.ca on the contrary, it requires very little water circulation, which can be blocked by injection of cement or waterproof products on the periphery !!!

The big difficulty in France is that this real ecological solution is ignored by the pros, who will never favor a solution that puts them out of future unemployment, by almost total absence of maintenance and repair over 50 years, unlike PACs, complicated at pleasure (compressor, special fluid, etc.) and other heating methods with a fairly short lifespan !!

[sterua32]

Thank you for your answer
but in fact, when I spoke of geothermal energy, I was speaking of rather vertical geothermal energy (120m drilling) or geothermal energy on a water table / river. I have a budget of € 25000 in all.
from what I saw, I would have about 4000 € of supply for the insulation that I would do myself. So I still have € 21000 for the heating system (the ideal would be for it to cool in the summer, but that, I think it would cost too much).
Solar panels, okay, but what is the cost of installation? Is it profitable in the long term, knowing that they lose 20% of their efficiency in 10 years ...
As for wood, I'm not very much for ... already you have to find wood, see you have to buy logs (which therefore come from trees cut especially for that) or you have to buy wood pellets (which are made by me). don't know how, but I don't think it's as eco-friendly as they want it to be)
This is why I thought more of vertical geothermal energy, which keeps a good performance in winter, and which only consumes electricity.
Now, if you tell me that an installation of a solar panel for heating + DHW is sufficient, and that it will not exceed the budget, for sure it is even better, but good view than the installation of solar water heater costs in the 5000-6000 €, I do not even dare to imagine the price of a means of heating for the winter for 120m2 in solar panels.

thank you anyway for your great answer :)

[dirk pitt]

... or you have to buy wood pellets (which are made I don't know how, but I don't think it's as ecological as they want it to be believed)

find out better, you are wrong.
I don't want to influence anyone. make your own opinion but by educating yourself better than just: "I think", "it seems that"

when to your cast iron radiators, I advise you to keep them, the cast iron has a good thermal inertia and allows to work in general at low water temperature. at home, the water rarely exceeds 40 ° from the radiator.
however, the lower the water temperature, the lower the losses of the heating system, whatever it is.
For example, it is absurd to have radiator leaving water at 60 °, the radiator thermostats of which reduce the flow to death to adjust the power.

[Christophe]

As you seem to want to move towards geothermal energy (since you have frankly not objectively "eliminated" the 3 other major energies, especially wood ??), I advise you to read this in detail: "Are thermodynamic heating, heat pumps and geothermal energy an ecologically and economically acceptable solution?"

https://www.econologie.com/chauffage-the ... -4361.html
resulting from the reflections of: https://www.econologie.com/forums/pompe-a-ch ... t4264.html

Of course, wood pellets are more environmentally friendly than any other fossil fuel: their embodied energy is equivalent to petroleum fuels (5 to 10%) and very often it is wood energy with cogeneration (energy loop) ...

Here are some figures: https://www.econologie.com/energie-grise ... -3821.html

After you do what you want, you have the right to get ripped off econologically ...

You will read this also on the COP: https://www.econologie.com/forums/cop-d-un-s ... t8220.html

[manet42]

Hello,

Just a small remark, your small radiators have been designed for an uninsulated house .... They risk becoming over-sized after good insulation, they will then be called "low temperature" or roughly 40 ° mini by 5 ° ext / 55 ° max by -15 ° ext.
It was the case with me (construction 1970), my Lamella radiators have become twice too powerful.
Very good, this decreases the losses and possibly allows to have a solar contribution (economically not profitable).
In your place, I will keep these radiators, just change the boiler .... At my place, pellets (750 € / year; 135m2 in Lorraine).

JC

[dedeleco]

you already have to find wood, see you have to buy logs (which therefore come from trees cut especially for this

the free wood that I use, taken around my home, yet 900Km away, comes from pruning and hedge trimmings, at home and at my neighbors (and also storms like the one at the end of 1999, which I didn't failed to exhaust!) in huge amount wasted by my many neighbors (burned by smoking me for days and otherwise thrown in the vegetable dump).
So the trees are not specially cut for this !!
and it's free !! reducing pollution by eliminating open-air burns (dioxins guaranteed)

Much more I pruned large trees at the neighbors for free (to unblock a view too), they are happy not to pay a pro 800 € to just prune a large tree, which I do with a saw at the end of 'a stick and with ropes, in conditions of safety much better than those of the pros that I saw operate !!!!

So it is wrong to say "trees cut especially for this" for my wood !!!
In addition to doing exercise to collect and saw this wood by hand is very good for my health, since the French exercise less and less and gain weight !!
In fact I have too much free wood !!!!

In France, when we see the quantity of open-air plant fires which smoke up the entire PACA region in autumn, over hundreds of km l on the motorway, after the rain, we see the enormous quantity of wood and plants wasted unnecessarily by making a enormous pollution by burning them in the open air !!!!
What scares me is that the French find it normal and pay a high price for their heating instead of using this free energy !!!

Otherwise, the sentence:

I was rather thinking of vertical geothermal energy, which keeps a good performance in winter, and which only consumes electricity.

seems to come straight out of a PAC seller and smells of the typical scam !!!
The word geothermal energy is a pure deceptive scam, because we use the solar heat stored underground, for years, not that of the depths of the earth, as I explained above !!

It is essential to know why it takes 120m, not 240m, not 50m or 20m, why vertical is better than horizontal and to verify the scientific consistency of these peremptory seller statements .
The real nature of the land and the exact location are very important for the correct functioning of the heat pump and the price of the installation.
A PAC is a machine for cooling the soil in winter, or even freezing it and if undersized in cold region, it can be catastrophic !!

At a depth of 120m (why not more or less?) Once frozen the ground remains cold for how long ????
You have to see the real heat diffusion curves as the square root of time (which I have explained repeatedly on econology for www.dlsc.ca ), to realize how catastrophic and impossible it becomes to heat up this frozen ground (or well cooled), which gets worse and worse over successive years !!
The scam of the word geothermal energy is to make believe that the heat of the earth arrives quickly and well without end, whereas it is very limited by thermal diffusion, rapid deceptively at the beginning slowing down like the square root of time inexorably! !!
Even real large geothermal installations have been fooled in this way, even with the circulation of deep water from a pocket which, once well cooled, does not heat up after a few years !!!!!
See in the Paris region, some who, to get by, manage to warm this tablecloth with the summer heat coming from the combustion of garbage, heat totally wasted in summer !! They did not think of solar heat, as of www.dlsc.ca !!
Also geothermal energy is a nest of beautiful hidden scams !!
The simplest is the bankruptcy of the company once you have paid, with a CAP that works for 5 days and becomes irreparable, as happened to friends of my family (30000 € disappeared) !!
The other is the shortened life cycle CAP, changing standards, parts not found after 3 years as happened to me, for much less !!
Finally the almost certain is the yield which plummets, too cold ground which never warms up after a few years !!
That's why heating this floor in summer is essential to compensate for the cold of winter, at least by reversible air conditioning in very strong summer (the case in the USA but not in France) or much better by solar heating of the floor in summer as in www.dlsc.ca !!!!

For simple inexpensive sensors that heat very well in summer see Forhorse and APPER (simple pipe in the sun !!)
https://www.econologie.com/forums/chauffe-ea ... 10880.html

So you have to ask for detailed scientific explanations to see the lies of the sellers !!!
I got fooled by trusting an architect that I managed to get condemned by the courts after 7 years of proceedings !!

Finally, the heat pump

which only consumes electricity

is the worst antiecological because it ensures the proliferation of nuclear power plants,
with the added bonus of having one day sooner or later as in Japan, a Fukushima Chernobyl, inevitable in France because men and our nuclear supermans cannot be infallible in perpetuity, as they want us to believe !!!
So without electricity, you will no longer have heating !!
Reason to also have wood heating with a fireplace and an insert or stove much cheaper !!

I would have about 4000 € of supply for the insulation that I would do myself

exterior or interior insulation with thickness of 24cm ??
Very different efficiency !!!
Not clear, because 24cm is rather exterior, but glass wool which loses its insulation when wet, it is rather interior ??????????????

Our advices,

After you do what you want, you have the right to have pseudo econologically ripped off ..

and look with great care and scientifically at the proposals !!
The sellers take advantage of the lack of knowledge to tell anything !!

[Christophe]

Me jdis, it's a heat pump salesman who simulates

Nah, I'm kidding, I don't know!

Still, it's a bit big all the same ...

[sterua32]

Hello
Thank you for your answers
(by the way christophe, would you have the pdf of the gray energies of pellets in french please?)
I see that the pellet boilers are quite good.
after several readings, i don't think i'll finally install a geothermal cap (at least not for a few decades, we'll see what progress is doing by then or not).
on the other hand, honestly, I still hesitate between an air / water pac and a pellet boiler. the price of using the boiler in low air, but I see two major drawbacks: the prices are in the order of € 15000, and a lot of space is needed to store the wood and the boiler. While the cap takes up a little less space, and is a little cheaper (a little less than € 12000). After for the cap, its efficiency drops sharply when the outlet temperature for the radiators is increased, but by re-insulating the house, I think that ultimately my radiators will be sufficient, and they will need less hot water. In any case, I would have to add an electric cumulus to have DHW in summer.
But hey, I haven't made a final decision yet, I just know that I won't be using geothermal energy for now.

[sterua32]

in fact reading the answers above, i think i will continue to make up my own mind and see myself getting ripped off, but at least without being called an idiot, or a pac salesman.
and I don't thank you for your pseudo-advice based on English site or German pdf
good luck everyone