Build your own reversible heating floor

Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ... short thermal comfort. Insulation, wood energy, heat pumps but also electricity, gas or oil, VMC ... Help in choosing and implementation, problem solving, optimization, tips and tricks ...
NLX
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Build your own reversible heating floor




by NLX » 31/01/14, 14:22

Bonjour à tous

I wish to build a small 20m² office in my garden. I submit my ideas, thoughts and questions to the community, do not hesitate to give me your opinion :)

To conclude:
    Image
    > 5x4m
    > first question: what is the minimum ceiling height that you think is correct to avoid any feeling of being crushed?
    > a little less than 30m² of roof at 25/30 °
    > insulation by exterior cladding
    > honeycomb concrete walls
    I started out on wood / straw frame walls but my land is very wet and I have doubts about the durability of putrescible materials. In addition, certain distance constraints vis-à-vis the boundaries of properties and surrounding houses made me abandon the idea. "Losing" 40 / 50cm in width in the walls greatly cooled me.


I) Insulation in the cladding

    Image
    I was just thinking of making a wood cladding with interior caissons filled with rock wool.
    Why rock wool? Because it's not expensive, unlike cork blocks for example.

    Straw? Why not, but I have critters in the area : Mrgreen:

    If you have other ideas for insulators, I'm interested :)

II) Reversible heated floor

    My office is located in the Center region, our winters are relatively rigorous ... since I am surrounded by forests, my first idea was to install a small wood stove, but given the small size of the office, I fear that the smallest Commercially available 3kW turns my office into a furnace very quickly ... 70-80m³ approx. If you have arguments to the contrary, I'm interested!

    For the record, I am a computer scientist, so there will be in my office a number of PC / servers that will turn. To avoid the constant purring of the fans, I decided to cool down the entire computer park that will be in the office ^ _ ^
    I take the opportunity to return all those interested in the excellent site http://www.cooling-masters.com/ and thank the passionate people present on their forum.
    The principle is simple: a PER tube goes into the slab, supplies water to all the PCs in the office, warms up a bit and then plunges into the earth to take advantage of the thermal inertia of the soil to cool it, all set in motion by a small circulator.


    A) Heating

      From there, I said to myself: why not also pass another PER BAO poured in the slab to heat my office?
      I have room on the roof, I'm oriented almost south (about 160 °), I saw many sites where autoconstructobrowers made pretty small solar panels, filled with brine which I think done within my reach.

      Let's start the flow of questions : Cheesy:
        1 - solar panels, even in winter, can potentially heat up to what I could see (I found a video where steam came out of the panel facing south and full summer and filled with a bit of tap water ). But I thought, perhaps naively, to pass the water directly from the panel to PER under slab. Is my idea feasible or not?
        2 - I need a pump to circulate the water panels to the slab, I can not use the principle of thermosiphon. Here again, the question of temperature arises. What is the budget for a pump capable of supporting high temperatures?
        3 - is there a device, not "too" expensive, which could switch off the pump as soon as a certain temperature is reached?
        4 - Am I forced to go through a tank, type water heater, which would be heated by the solar panel, then another circuit that would go into the tank to warm up before going into the slab?
        5 - should not a safety valve be installed on the water circuit (say between the tank and the panels) to prevent the pressure from rising too much? I did not see it on the site of self-builders that I saw visit ...

        Clearly, I'm lost!

    B) Air conditioning

      As long as I am there, with a small valve system, even if it means having a circuit that goes under the slab, I might as well try to pass "fresh" water during the summer. I was just thinking, in the same way that I cool my computers from the ground, to run PER BAO in the ground (the water table is not far and anyway, the tubes will be buried at + -2m)

      Second wave : Cheesy:
        1 - in general, as much for the heating as for the clim, for the slab that in the soil, it is imperatively necessary to use sheathed PER? I would say yes, but ...
        2 - do you have any idea of ​​the heat exchange (say in joules / cm² or w / cm²) of PER BAO
        3 - what do you think of the idea?


That's it, I think there is already much food for thought with all this :)

Thank you in advance for your answers
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by elephant » 31/01/14, 17:02

Oh ! Oh ! We are not an office of study.

1) you should try to communicate with Captain Maloche: it's his job.

https://www.econologie.com/forums/membre2883.html

2) first criticism (constructive): and if you played the card of direct solar heating by enlarging the bay window south and lowering the edge of the roof to be in the shade in summer

3) for 20 m², 2m60 is a standard height that gives good proportions. Do not go below 2m30
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by NLX » 31/01/14, 17:18

I know you're not a design office : Mrgreen:
If only some of you can give me answers to some basic questions like:
> It goes up to 120C ° you must have an intermediate balloon
> Y brand pumps hold 150C ° so you can go
> Your solution is a bit stupid you should do this and that (what you did a bit by emphasizing the interest of the bay)

It would arrange me to do less bullshit, that's all :)

That said, regarding your very constructive remark: the bay, facing south, is already 2.4m wide on a wall total of 5 m. I am already bad, I think. After, I had also thought about setting up an earthship type system
Image
or a sort of veranda which would take up the entire front of the office, but in terms of floor space, it will do so moderately, since it would be necessary in absolute terms to have a kind of "corridor" in front. I do not know if I am very clear, I simply wish I had stayed at an area of ​​5x4.

Ditto for heating floor stories, I'm sure some of you have already put this type of product and must know if they have a sheath or not. Indeed, I saw pipes PER BAO without sheath on sale on the internet, but I doubt the durability of the installation.

There you have it, all that to say that I still think I have thought a little bit and have documented myself a minimum before coming to do my "job" on this site, the idea is to share your ideas and knowledge, isn't it?

Thank you :)
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Re: Build your own reversible heating floor




by Capt_Maloche » 03/02/14, 21:44

NlX wrote:Bonjour à tous

I wish to build a small 20m² office in my garden.
...

Let's start the flow of questions : Cheesy:
    1 - solar panels, even in winter, can potentially heat up to what I could see (I found a video where steam came out of the panel facing south and full summer and filled with a bit of tap water ). But I thought, perhaps naively, to pass the water directly from the panel to PER under slab. Is my idea feasible or not?
    2 - I need a pump to circulate the water panels to the slab, I can not use the principle of thermosiphon. Here again, the question of temperature arises. What is the budget for a pump capable of supporting high temperatures?
    3 - is there a device, not "too" expensive, which could switch off the pump as soon as a certain temperature is reached?
    4 - Am I forced to go through a tank, type water heater, which would be heated by the solar panel, then another circuit that would go into the tank to warm up before going into the slab?
    5 - should not a safety valve be installed on the water circuit (say between the tank and the panels) to prevent the pressure from rising too much? I did not see it on the site of self-builders that I saw visit ...
    ...
      1 - in general, as much for the heating as for the clim, for the slab that in the soil, it is imperatively necessary to use sheathed PER? I would say yes, but ...
      2 - do you have any idea of ​​the heat exchange (say in joules / cm² or w / cm²) of PER BAO
      3 - what do you think of the idea?
[/ List]
...
Thank you in advance for your answers


Hello, Hi Eleph!
We are not out of the hostel it looks like huh? :P

solar panels, it's great, when there is sunshine, last winter I complained the photovoltaic installers, with our 12h00 of sun per month, but it's a little better this year.

1,2 and 4
for a floor heating, any heat source is valid, but it is necessary to be able to regulate the temperature of the slab to avoid the discomfort (T ° max 28 ° C) or to crack it, that is why we never directly connect the energy source (not controllable) on this low temperature network, we must go through a storage of energy and regulate the departure; Yes it starts to get complicated and yes, you need one or 2 pumps.

3
It's called a thermostat :D

5
indeed it is necessary to preserve the installation

Click here, there are not the examples that are missing
https://www.google.fr/search?q=Sch%C3%A9ma+de+principe+plancher+chauffant&espv=210&es_sm=93&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Xv3vUs7LF-yb0wXC3IHgDw&ved=0CDEQsAQ&biw=1395&bih=917

PER, yes, it is the right product, you can also get fresh water to cool a floor, but here too it must be regulated to avoid condensation.

The possible powers are of the order of 100W / m² slab for hot and 35W / m² in cooling

The idea of ​​passing the calories of your servers in the floor is funny, but what power is it?
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Re: Build your own reversible heating floor




by Capt_Maloche » 03/02/14, 21:50

NlX wrote:Bonjour à tous

I wish to build a small 20m² office in my garden.
...

Let's start the flow of questions : Cheesy:
    1 - solar panels, even in winter, can potentially heat up to what I could see (I found a video where steam came out of the panel facing south and full summer and filled with a bit of tap water ). But I thought, perhaps naively, to pass the water directly from the panel to PER under slab. Is my idea feasible or not?
    2 - I need a pump to circulate the water panels to the slab, I can not use the principle of thermosiphon. Here again, the question of temperature arises. What is the budget for a pump capable of supporting high temperatures?
    3 - is there a device, not "too" expensive, which could switch off the pump as soon as a certain temperature is reached?
    4 - Am I forced to go through a tank, type water heater, which would be heated by the solar panel, then another circuit that would go into the tank to warm up before going into the slab?
    5 - should not a safety valve be installed on the water circuit (say between the tank and the panels) to prevent the pressure from rising too much? I did not see it on the site of self-builders that I saw visit ...
    ...
      1 - in general, as much for the heating as for the clim, for the slab that in the soil, it is imperatively necessary to use sheathed PER? I would say yes, but ...
      2 - do you have any idea of ​​the heat exchange (say in joules / cm² or w / cm²) of PER BAO
      3 - what do you think of the idea?
[/ List]
...
Thank you in advance for your answers


Hello, Hi Eleph!
We are not out of the hostel it looks like huh? :P

solar panels, it's great, when there is sunshine, last winter I complained the photovoltaic installers, with our 12h00 of sun per month, but it's a little better this year.

1,2 and 4
for a floor heating, any heat source is valid, but it is necessary to be able to regulate the temperature of the slab to avoid the discomfort (T ° max 28 ° C) or to crack it, that is why we never directly connect the energy source (not controllable) on this low temperature network, we must go through a storage of energy and regulate the departure; Yes it starts to get complicated and yes, you need one or 2 pumps.

3
It's called a thermostat :D

5
indeed it is necessary to preserve the installation

Click here, there are not the examples that are missing
https://www.google.fr/search?q=Sch%C3%A9ma+de+principe+plancher+chauffant&espv=210&es_sm=93&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Xv3vUs7LF-yb0wXC3IHgDw&ved=0CDEQsAQ&biw=1395&bih=917

PER, yes, it is the right product, you can also get fresh water to cool a floor, but here too it must be regulated to avoid condensation.

The possible powers are of the order of 100W / m² slab for hot and 35W / m² in cooling

The idea of ​​passing the calories of your servers in the floor is funny, but what power is it?
0 x
"Consumption is similar to a search consolation, a way to fill a growing existential void. With, the key, a lot of frustration and a little guilt, increasing the environmental awareness." (Gérard Mermet)
OUCH, OUILLE, OUCH, AAHH! ^ _ ^
NLX
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Registration: 31/01/14, 12:02




by NLX » 04/02/14, 01:30

Thank you

So the construction of this system will be a little more complicated than I thought. But not infeasible ...

Capt_Maloche wrote:It's called a thermostat :D

hahahahaha


Capt_Maloche wrote:Click here, there are not the examples that are missing
https://www.google.fr/search?q=Sch%C3%A ... 95&bih=917

You see, it's so simple and smart as keywords that I had not thought about it. Sometimes we are nose in, we look in all directions, and we forget to go to the point ...
Or is it that I am stupid? One does not prevent the other ... :)

Good anyway I just spend 2 hours browsing in your pictures, go to see the sites that h sleep, etc., I learned a lot, thank you very much!

Regarding my computers + servers, let's say that there will be a maximum cumulative power of 500W, in peak, to maintain below 40 ° C. Knowing that anyway a proco quietly much more, but the idea is to maintain in good condition all these devices to the ecological footprint really disgusting.
There are currently very powerful processors with a 35W Thermal Design Power (TDP) in peak.
In case the geothermal is not enough, I even thought to add a small central heating radiator as heat sink outside the office, in an adjoining workshop. I just have to make sure to find radiators with a copper pipe to avoid any redox phenomenon, which can do very big damage in my waterblocks (the copper blocks in contact with the elements to be cooled in the PCs and in which the water passes)
In short, the realization of this office will be the subject of a website, I will make you pass that.

Could you tell me if the pipes inside the central heating radiators are copper?


I give myself time for maturation, then I will propose a diagram for you to give me your opinion.

Thanks again: p
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by I Citro » 04/02/14, 07:54

Hello,

The use of blocks shocks me a little. It's the opposite of an insulating material ...
It is far from being a healthy material, it is well wet, is not very efficient for steam exchanges, in short, without a powerful ventilation, comfort is less than with other materials like brick, cellular concrete, straw, wood, ...

I do not think that the straw poses the least problem with small animals ...

Whatever the material used, 40 cm of total thickness are at least necessary for a very well insulated wall (bare wall + doubling) ...
Using parepaing is equivalent to losing 20cm of insulation thickness.
In contrast, using cellular concrete means having the full thickness as insulation without thermal bridging.

Also think to insulate well under the chappe not to heat the moles ...
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by NLX » 04/02/14, 10:53

A few hundred yards away I saw a wooden house rise and I saw in a handful of months the bottom of the walls getting black.
It cooled me down a bit ...

after I have no miracle solutions eh ...
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by I Citro » 04/02/14, 12:25

That's why I did not insist on wood.

This is one more reason to avoid parepaing and choose a material that will gorge less moisture ...

Then, do not neglect the roof and sidewalk to prevent the rain soaks the bottom of the wall and reject the water farthest from the foundation through the slope of the sidewalk and possibly drainage to maintain the foundation dry wall.

From my point of view, parepaing concrete is to be avoided for a home, except for the realization of the outer walls, crawl space and possibly the garage ...
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by NLX » 04/02/14, 12:54

What you call cellular concrete is siporex type is that?

A priori nut no doubt but I always felt that it was a bit of cardboard paste, the way it breaks easily not too much to trust this material. especially that in terms, I would like to completely fill my roof with solar panels, which makes 20 / 25kg suppl / m²

I will inquire

I thought to use honeycomb blocks (I do not find the exact name): concrete blocks but dimpled like honeycomb brick blocks. I do not know what it's worth for humidity.

[edit] found an image
Image



Eaves, I have to find the angles of the sun's rays in winter and summer to optimize, but OK

sidewalk + drainage around the office = OK
Last edited by NLX the 04 / 02 / 14, 13: 20, 2 edited once.
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