Amelioration veranda insulation polycarbonate roof

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Matt113
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Amelioration veranda insulation polycarbonate roof




by Matt113 » 13/11/12, 09:53

Hi the éconologistes,

I come to you for a question on porches.

Recently acquired a house, the latter to a veranda north, north / north / west exactly.
positive point is that the northern front of the house is protected by the conservatory. The walls of the rooms overlooking the veranda are not cold and it greatly increases the comfort.
negative, the porch is not very hot.
As I dealt with the attic insulation for the rooms: 20cm insulation roll over the rooms. I think it can be quite a bit to improve the thermal insulation of the conservatory, which will be equally beneficial for the home.

Rather than a long explanation, a diagram:

Image

so the veranda is in two parts:
- A game with a corrugated iron roof that dates back high against the wall of the house but has a false ceiling (to 2m20) insulated with glass wool 20cm, that part of it that is ok.
- And a second portion with a polycarbonate ceiling, the big downside of course.

It is the former that made proprios ask polycarbonate last few years (less than 10 years) but they are simple plates 16mm. The plates are placed with aluminum profiles that make thermal bridge which suddenly gives condensation.

The idea would be to improve the insulation of polycarbonate ceiling without losing the contribution of light or heat in the afternoon when it's sunny, the house being slightly oriented towards the west.

I therefore was my idea.
Would it make sense to place a second layer of polycarbonate below the first?
Again a diagram:

Image

No need much explanation here I think, basically the idea is to place the second layer of polycarbonate (blue) as on the drawing.

In your opinion is that it may be beneficial? Or is better to redo everything correctly with larger plates and insulating but more expensive course? What I could not do right away for lack of much diminished budget in part by the chassis, attic insulation, electricity and some other works : Cheesy:
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by Christophe » 13/11/12, 15:21

This is the place to start: you can make a dubbing polycarbonate translucent but not transparent (opal it is called by some manufacturers) leaving 2 3 cm in air: this is the ideal space thermally.

Not on what you should do with PC honeycomb but it's still better heat (some plates 16mm are given for R almost 2 think ... who wants me I can not still ...).

These materials have become very expensive ...

But it will be far from enough: I need you to intervene on the wall (0 insulation I presume) and especially on the slab ... and also hunting potential thermal bridges but mostly air leakage (the old porches are quite colanders ...)

If you have actual images that will help us help you ...
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by Christophe » 13/11/12, 15:22

For the aluminum profiles you can line them with extruded polystyrene EPS in the "invisible" part between the 2 plates.

In the visible part you can make a wooden form (PSE + or raw wood paneling) ... but it's work!

ps: you can also post your message here http://www.isolation-chauffage.com/arch ... ation-bbc/
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by Obamot » 13/11/12, 17:54

That yes, the pictures would help. Especially details of aluminum joinery (window (?), Details of all profiles, junction between the house and the porch, she has a door junction between polycarbonate, etc, in short, all areas with loss of can heat or leaks ... including access between the house and the veranda, double door?)

I do not understand the presence of condensation! If there is at this stage, it is either because access to the porch from the house is not closed (open or door removed) there is no insulation at this level unless it is deficient (and the entire wall, or the access door if it is closed because ... it MUST be, precisely to avoid condensation).

To illustrate another angle what was said Christophe:

The good news is that there is probably nothing to do except carefully track all the airways from the veranda to the outside, and condemn them all (silicone spray for the interstices, polyurethane foam to spray " molo "in the hollow aluminum profiles after having drilled a small hole, if these consist of a assembly (Otherwise it's useless unless the connections are bad and we can not access it), but in the gaffe double glazing, should not that there have to reach the windows, because it would the cat: should disassemble to remove the cutter). Why is that good news? Because it is the air of the conservatory which should serve as an insulator, there is therefore no need to add a layer on the roof. In this type of all-aluminum structure, the cold bridges are such that nothing can be done! We must not hide our face, aluminum is an excellent thermal conductor, it is a metal! In addition, all wanting to insulate would be detrimental to the veranda's "heat trap" function on sunny days.

The bad news, it is possibly that if it is a question of making the veranda a "living room", which would make it lose its function of veranda, then the fact of putting a second polycarbonate roof, will only have the effect to intensify the condensation on the "untreated" areas, and therefore to amplify the cold bridges, as happens with all aluminum profiles giving both inside and outside. If this is the goal to achieve, there is work ...

So in my humble opinion, there are two possibilities, either:
- The choice is made to do one more piece and you have ANY again;
- it is necessary to insulate the wall between the veranda and this one and "treat" all the airways of the whole, veranda, but also the access to this one (probable reason of the appearance of condensation). Note that it will be difficult to remove any condensation with this type of structure, we can only reduce it eventually. There is no miracle when there is an unfavorable delta T.
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by Matt113 » 13/11/12, 20:52

thanks for the answers.

then first from me the idea of ​​making a living, that's not what I want, my goal is to limit heat loss from the veranda. the temperature are not too low down in winter.
for the frame is wood with double glazing, the wall it is not isolated but here I intend to do when I redo the terrace is behind the veranda.
except for access to the veranda, there are two doors, but good more interior doors than outside but not low-end cardboard either.
there are no air passage everything has been done in fact, there is not too cold, the coolest nights we had until now slightly below zero it was 13 / 14 ° in the bottom of the veranda at the plate.
The only downside to the veranda that's polycarbonate low thicknesses with these profiles of aluminum joints, poor quality and / or poorly assembled I do not know. Even if the aluminum is provided with a system of thermal break right?

I understand why the old proprios slammed as much money for the false ceiling insulated, put such a chassis with reinforced blades to flap and not to place dimpled plates that isolate a minimum.

edit:

for condensation bah I guess the veranda heats of the day, and the house is also inevitably loses heat because it is hotter than the porch, and when the cold night falls almost always has to be condensation at the top and bottom profiles aluminum junctions.
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by Christophe » 13/11/12, 21:09

Matt113 wrote:Even if the aluminum is provided with a system of thermal break right?


No no ... not at all certain that there is a break especially if it is "homemade" as it seems. Currently, aluminum frames are still being installed without breaking, so the old veranda profiles ... maybe not too much to ask ...

The idea of ​​Obamot to inject PU through small holes pleases me well enough ... : Idea:
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by Obamot » 13/11/12, 21:29

Matt113 wrote:thanks for the answers.

then first from me the idea of ​​making a living, that's not what I want, my goal is to limit heat loss from the veranda. the temperature are not too low down in winter.
for the frame is wood with double glazing, the wall it is not isolated but here I intend to do when I redo the terrace is behind the veranda.
except for access to the veranda, there are two doors, but good more interior doors than outside but not low-end cardboard either.
there are no air passage everything has been done in fact, there is not too cold, the coolest nights we had until now slightly below zero it was 13 / 14 ° in the bottom of the veranda at the plate.
The only downside to the veranda that's polycarbonate low thicknesses with these profiles of aluminum joints, poor quality and / or poorly assembled I do not know. Even if the aluminum is provided with a system of thermal break right?

I understand why the old proprios slammed as much money for the false ceiling insulated, put such a chassis with reinforced blades to flap and not to place dimpled plates that isolate a minimum.

edit:

for condensation bah I guess the veranda heats of the day, and the house is also inevitably loses heat because it is hotter than the porch, and when the cold night falls almost always has to be condensation at the top and bottom profiles aluminum junctions.

Hi Matt,

General remark in light of what you write there. Nothing personal - as I am speaking to all-a-everyone who reads this thread - but I think we should start by understanding insulation systems and their principle ... What materials are used and why how we must do the pose and what precautions to take ...

Gaffe also the fact that it must distinguish between "what we want to do as work"VS "what is possible and desirable to do" and without preconceived ideas ... because one is often very distant from each other.

If we come in a forum like this one, it is not to have a project in mind just to comfort itself on the opptive mode that we chose or what do I know (I do not say that it is the case here, it is a general remark, but it happens often) because we are often mistaken about the work to be undertaken (that is why we insist on photos). Otherwise the opinions given count for peanut ... It's worth a thousand times better take ideas you can read here and there, rather than stay fixed on hers (but it takes effort) : Mrgreen: : Cheesy: and too bad for the ego of those who were the pike since they do a favor!

We expect photos of the double door and the rest as listed above?

For the rest:
- As already said, unless there is serious, it is not necessary to put a double roof.

- it is necessary to ensure the hermeticity of the whole.

- it is simply the ambient air of the veranda itself which will serve as insulation once ALL the air leaks have been sealed ...

- Why? Because anyway - until proven otherwise - cold bridges of the door frame in aluminum could not be neutralized as it in two shots ladle. Unless you have double glazing ABSOLUTELY EVERYWHERE (so rainfly also installed), in which case it will be like Christophe suggests: isolate the amounts of aluminum and all walls with extruded polystyrene (which sticks very well with the polyurethane foam! and lets make a coherent whole in one piece ... make airtight material testing between-them before, for compatibility bonding). You must not be apparent aluminum inside and even provide an overlap of 1 inch.

- Possibly mount a double glazing to screw on the existing amounts of the double door access to the veranda ...! If there instead. one year a test can be putting a cellophane transparent film (of those used by florists) and fixed carefully all around and tense, with bodybuilder tape (having previously degreased surfaces, of course) .

- be careful to take care of the joint between the veranda and the front wall!

- does this double door have a "d" profile cell seal or nothing at all? Otherwise you have to put one in one piece all around and finish it bevelled to fit it into the starting gate ...

- How is the putty holding the glass? Again, these are air circulation strainers when there are wooden joinery, because the wood work and caulk cracks (except Corsica wood ...) : Mrgreen: (Ditto for the tightness of the double glazing of the conservatory, which require careful care.)

So a priori yes, if all this is done, it is worth putting a polycarbonate lining (roof) and ben isolate completely all around (see and study design for this purpose). Then yes, if all these measures are taken, it will make a difference. Start with an inventory, point by point, and list all the weaknesses and ad hoc measures to address them!
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by Christophe » 13/11/12, 22:07

Obamot wrote:(Except Corsica wood ...)


Ah ah I understood but not everyone understands that the one ...
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