Heating Tips residential garage conversion

Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ... short thermal comfort. Insulation, wood energy, heat pumps but also electricity, gas or oil, VMC ... Help in choosing and implementation, problem solving, optimization, tips and tricks ...
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Obamot
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Re: Heating tips for garage-to-house conversion




by Obamot » 16/03/16, 15:39

@ Ahmed & to all:
- For the mass stove, if the FIREPLACE is small, it is 3x more efficient! Logs, he uses 3x less - as fuel - than pellets as I understand it. Reason why this requires a focus of only 60cm x 60cm x 60cm (there are some with larger focus, but it is better a small focus for a good print as I understand ...). With 1 at 2 outbreaks that last 1 at 2x1,5h a day, that's enough to heat the building ...

Associated with a well-made ITE + double window and thermal shutters, it is really VERY economical in use. But I have the same problem as Neonavy, I would like - for example - a "programmable mass pellet stove" if possible in self-construction, in which I can also put logs when I'm there ... ^^


@ Neonavy & to all:

PAC (Heat Pump)
- The idea of ​​the ITE + mass stove is precisely there to do without a PAC ...! O_ °
- The difference between a mass stove and a single pellet stove, is the benefit of the inertia of the mass stove that weighs 2T: because with a peak at approx. 1'200 ° C inside - this temperature is not dissipated but accumulated and then slowly re-diffused for more than a day - almost all the heat is used to heat the rack, so excess heat is not dissipated in the smoke, since the smoke coming out of the circuit is at a relatively low temperature!

- For the swimming pool, the idea in my post was to make it "an element of the decor", by making it penetrate from the outside, towards the inside of the current building (did I express myself badly? instead of "hiding" it but it's up to you to see if you prefer to show the garden .... why not ... notice that the garden is not green at least 4 months a year.)

Sub-roof:
- To isolate a "skylight" I would drop, LED lighting by 10W projector is sufficient for a bathroom and we do not stay there for long so very low expenditure.
- The sandwich panels are thremoconductibles, you're right, we must be wary, it is useless. Moreover, if it is glass wool inside, after 30ans it is cooked / damn. Let's say that 300mm under-roof (possibly double cross layer of 150mm, but it doubles the work of installation) it corresponds better to 200mm of panels of LDV in frontage (because in under-roofing one always puts some more)! But be careful: protection of rigor with suit, boots gloves and glasses ... The best choice for the under-roof is cellulose wadding, amha (IMHO). No matter what you choose, do not forget the vapor barrier (kind of kraft paper embedded in mineral wool if it's your choice)

Multi-stage construction
- Note that if you do the work in several stages, you will have to stop the insulation of facade at the pool and garages! Otherwise you will isolate 2x. And do not take advantage of it to do the ITI (Inner Thermal Insulation) at these places, otherwise you will kill the benefit of a good ITE (External Thermal Insulation). I would say the smartest thing, if you want to do it in several steps, it would be to at least mount the walls, because so you could loop your ITE at once and it would be effective until the next step and beyond ... .

Junction design with foundations
- For the risk of flooding on the insulation - I would put in junction with the ground - panels of PE (Extruded polystyrene instead of panels of wool of rock) on a height of 1m at least, so that you would be quiet. Because the slightest soaking in the water of glass wool panels and it is ruined (idem for the roof). Anyway it is better in any case to ensure a junction with a rot-proof material! The top is to excavate the front wall on 50cm, tarring and then put on a Delta MS belt, which will join a strip of 1m PE, on which will be born the rockwool. For the junction between Delta MS and PE I have no idea how to do, maybe a plug of sand between top soil and PE .... To protect with a mortar of the type of one that would extend the facade coating ...? But the facade coating must be airtight below the joint, beware of the finishes! Why put PE 1m will protect rockwool panels!

- Mineral wool (glass or rock) has the advantage of being the cheapest, but it requires precautions of use and application. It is a material that I do not recommend anymore inside since the scandal of the asbestos (our chemist told us that it was better to apply the principle of precaution ... After everyone does as he wants ...)

- If you wish to condemn the natural lighting of the roof (your reasoning stands) and replace it with bay windows, it would be well to count also with shutters-thermal plugs ... (100mm of PE in the shutters which must close hermetically) and of course double argon glazing for your windows.

- the "basero" is a little less good mass stove type "rocker stove"? Anyway, for this type of heating to be interesting, it is better that the fireplace is inside the home, because it can also be used for heating.

- As I saw a construction machine, if it is yours and you do the excavation of the pool yourself, it will cost you less than 50k ..?

- For Synersol, it's really very, very good. But polyurethane foam - in principle - is only made to correct an ITE (make joints, go plug small holes, make repairs, all parsimonious use) .... So what I would do is put a layer of 150mm of PE on the ground, then a parquet or a linoleum OBS parquet. Then you do not need a heated floor anymore! (Attention to the garage and the weight of the vehicles, there I think it should not be put and it would be complicated with your pits). And the underfloor heating, it requires maintenance and not so easy to repair.
=> as an example, the admissible load (following protection of its surface by a floating parquet) for polystyrene panels placed on the floor is very high, of the order of 2T / m2!
http://www.sager.ch/images/upload/Prosp ... _f_753.pdf

Well, it's a step up / down - it removes the last thermal bridge - grueling ?! : Cheesy:
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Re: Heating tips for garage-to-house conversion




by Ahmed » 16/03/16, 17:22

Obamot, you write:
it's better to have a small home for a good draft than I understand ...

The mass rocket stove has a highly developed exchange circuit and the gas velocity in a rather small section is an integral part of the device; it even gets its name because of the characteristic noise it emits.
In the more general case of more conventional stoves, but efficient, which I know well, it is not what is sought: a small fireplace, suitable for logs of 33 cm, can reach high temperatures (walls accumulators made of refractory bricks also contribute) necessary for good combustion. A high speed of the fumes would be inappropriate, since it would limit the heat exchange time on the rather small surfaces generally observed on this type of apparatus.

The brazier is a rudimentary system generating a lot of unburnt, so globally inefficient and therefore to avoid.

OBS = OSB?
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Re: Heating tips for garage-to-house conversion




by Obamot » 16/03/16, 18:18

And vice versa:

OBS => ОСБ (Russian) => OSB ploče (Serbian) which means OSB (Oriented Strand Board) in English.
Why Ukrainian can feel foreign to Kiev, while the American feels at home?

But here we unscrew (I'm going to drink a koak-kola ...)
Last edited by Obamot the 16 / 03 / 16, 18: 33, 3 edited once.
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Re: Heating tips for garage-to-house conversion




by Ahmed » 16/03/16, 18:22

Here We are in France, sir, and we are asked to speak English like everyone else! :P
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Re: Heating tips for garage-to-house conversion




by neonavy » 18/03/16, 21:17

Ahmed wrote:Oil, coal, gas, uranium are also waste! The logs are little processed, which is not the case with pellets, but the basis of the price is not there, it is above all a matter of commercial considerations; the seller simply asks himself this question: given the advantages of the pellet, how much is a customer willing to pay, with regard to other energies with comparable facilities, knowing that he cannot establish an easy comparison, since I have the possibility of muddying the waters by other additional considerations (of the "ecological" fuel style, good for the planet or other silliness ...).
It must also be taken into consideration that there are far fewer pellet producers than log producers ...

Ok, I picked: logs = good; pellet = not good! ;-)
But another question arises then: one can make a stove (consuming pellets) a boiler to supply the radiators, but one can not make a chimney a boiler (consuming logs) fulfilling the same functions ?! I suspect there must be stoves consuming logs but what is the maximum size of logs used?

Ahmed wrote:Thermosiphon: system designed to allow the vertical circulation (at least partially) of the heat transfer fluid from the boiler to the radiators by the simple play of the difference in temperature which generates a difference in density.

But for this to work it is imperative that the boiler is below the level of the radiators ?!

In another area, at equal size, what is the price difference between double and triple glazing? Is there a big difference in efficiency?

Obamot wrote:The idea of ​​the ITE + mass stove is precisely there to do without a PAC ...! O_ °

yes, but I do not see myself doing a flambé in the middle of summer just to heat the hot water tank.

Obamot wrote:The difference between a mass stove and a single pellet stove is the benefit of the inertia of the mass stove that weighs 2T: because with a peak at approx. 1'200 ° C inside - this temperature is not dissipated but accumulated and then slowly re-diffused for more than a day - almost all the heat is used to heat the rack, so excess heat is not dissipated in the smoke, since the smoke coming out of the circuit is at a relatively low temperature!

I can easily imagine that such a stove must be quite bulky and for it to be effective it would have to be placed in the middle of the house (I do not know if such a stove exists with a circulator of water for spread heat in all rooms) which is not super aesthetic / practical.

Obamot wrote:For the swimming pool, the idea in my post was to make it "an element of the decor", by making it penetrate from the outside, towards the inside of the current building (did I misspoke myself? to "hide" it but it's up to you if you prefer to show the garden .... why not ... notice that the garden is not green at least 4 months a year.)

a swimming pool is pretty, but "it does not live" (the "decor" is always the same), moreover in my project (favoring the insulation of the swimming pool to its exposure to the sun) it is more beautiful to seeing a garden flourish than a "static" swimming pool (we inevitably spend more time in a garden than in a swimming pool).

Obamot wrote:To isolate a "skylight" I would drop, LED lighting by 10W projector is sufficient for a bathroom and we do not stay there for long so very low expenditure.

in this case it is more for a question of aesthetics than consumption: natural light is always more beautiful and pleasant than artificial light (as powerful as it is).

Obamot wrote:The sandwich panels are thremoconductibles, you're right, we must be wary, it is useless. Moreover, if it is glass wool inside, after 30ans it is cooked / damn. Let's say that 300mm under-roof (possibly double cross layer of 150mm, but it doubles the work of installation) it corresponds better to 200mm of panels of LDV in frontage (because in under-roofing one always puts some more)! But be careful: protection of rigor with suit, boots gloves and glasses ... The best choice for the under-roof is cellulose wadding, amha (IMHO). No matter what you choose, do not forget the vapor barrier (kind of kraft paper embedded in mineral wool if it's your choice)

The panels were changed a maximum of ten years ago.
It is not really the work of laying for a double layer 150mm crossed) that I would have problem, but the cost ... By cons, par pité, avoided the abbreviations! what is the LDV ?!
Which side is the "by steam" on? Roof side or interior side?

Obamot wrote:Note that if you do the work in several stages, you will have to stop the insulation of facade at the pool and garages! Otherwise you will isolate 2x. And do not take advantage of it to do the ITI (Inner Thermal Insulation) at these places, otherwise you will kill the benefit of a good ITE (External Thermal Insulation). I would say the smartest thing, if you want to do it in several steps, it would be to at least mount the walls, because so you could loop your ITE at once and it would be effective until the next step and beyond ... .

ok, it's noted ... I think I'll start with the roof insulation (easier to access as long as the facade is still a large metal door and there is no floor built inside), moreover I do not need a building permit to do it (unlike extensions). On the other hand, I think that I will do the external insulation by a pro because I am afraid to make a stupidity and it will be done faster.
So for the moment (and in order) I am planning the small modifications to the roof, the roof insulation, the extensions, the exterior insulation, then the ground ... On the other hand a question arises for the ground (which do not necessarily have to do with the insulation): for the moment it is a "thin slab" of concrete covering the inside of the garage, I'm afraid that it will not support the weight of the supporting wall to make the floors ... How to do?! ... break the slab to make new foundations along the entire length of the wall? broke the slab just at certain points to put concrete studs there to support IPNs to support the floor?! ... Anyway, I think I will see that with the architect.
As for the risk of flooding, I must have a better chance of winning the lotto! ;-) since the garage is on a small "butt" it would really take a deluge worthy of Noah to run a risk on this side (only the increase in the groundwater level would risk flooding the pit / cellar, but Itinerary for the future.
And anyway, as I intend to call a pro (precisely for all these little "details") I think he will be better placed to advise me.

Obamot wrote:If you wish to condemn the natural lighting of the roof (your reasoning stands) and replace it with bay windows, it would be well to count also with shutters-thermal plugs ... (100mm of PE in the shutters which must close hermetically) and Of course, double glazing argon for your windows.

Given the location of the "large" bay window (at the first floor level), the size and the "difficulty of access" I have a little trouble imagining being able to put shutters on it.

Obamot wrote:the "basero" is a bit of a mass stove type "rocker stove" less well? Anyway, for this type of heating to be interesting, it is better that the fireplace is inside the home, because it can also be used for heating.

This is an interesting remark, but I do not think that it is feasible because the circulation of water of a swimming pool requires a large flow which imposes (to avoid harming this flow while maximizing the heat exchange) a large number of pipes and therefore the place ... In addition I plan to make a removable terrace (wooden) and therefore it is better to sink the wood heating indoors.

Obamot wrote:As I saw a construction machine, if it is yours and you do the excavation of the pool yourself, it will cost you less than 50k ..?

he is not mine, my father had called for him to evacuate the rainwater and the whole thing to the sewer. That said, the estimate that I had done for the pool implied that the hole was already made ... It is a land quite easy to work, it is not impossible that I hit the hole myself with my little arms ;-)

Obamot wrote:for example, the permissible load (following protection of its surface by a floating floor) for polystyrene panels placed on the ground is very high, of the order of 2T / m2!

It's indeed very impressive ... so I would have to put this "Sagex" on the ground (and for the exterior insulation too?)? do you have any idea of ​​the price per m2?

Ahmed wrote:The brazier is a rudimentary system generating a lot of unburnt, so globally inefficient and therefore to avoid.

I suspect that it is not an "ideal" heating system (which is why I only intended to use it from time to time), but it has the advantage of being practical, easy and quick to set up. implemented.
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Re: Heating tips for garage-to-house conversion




by Ahmed » 18/03/16, 21:55

... but we can not make a chimney a boiler (consuming logs) fulfilling the same functions ?! I suspect there must be stoves burning logs, but what is the maximum size of logs used?

There have been (and perhaps still) systems installed in open chimneys that can heat a water heating circuit, but these are inefficient facilities.
The maximum size of the logs should be around 60 cm, but this is not an optimum for combustion, as I said above.
But, for it to work, it is imperative that the boiler is below the level of the radiators ?!

it's a glue! All the installations that I saw (they were very common in the past) were in the basement and I think this is a condition of good functioning: it is probably imperative to have a good hot water column for " pull "the whole circuit. Anyway, there must be a noticeable difference between the high point and the low point, horizontally (or almost), it is better to forget ...
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Re: Heating tips for garage-to-house conversion




by dede2002 » 19/03/16, 14:08

neonavy wrote:Ok, I picked: logs = good; pellet = not good! ;-)
...

It should be more nuanced ... : Wink:

Pellet is a substitute for oil, made from wood.
It allows the same comfort as gas or oil, precise and fast regulation, programmable at will (even remotely).
Combustion is easier to control (with a more complicated machine) than wood, in principle the efficiency must be better and the emissions lower.
It is wood, plus an added value if possible local (drying, compression), and not made with gas or electricity (!).
Truck transportation is less dangerous than gas or oil, a tipping truck is easy to pick up.
Truck transport is less polluting than that of wood, compared to transported kWh.

Wood is more physical work, but it is easier to transport and store, it does not require electronics or advanced mechanics, but it requires heat storage. The mass of a mass stove plays the same role as the buffer tank (accumulator) of a central heating system, with the great advantage of being able to exceed 100 ° without danger.
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Re: Heating tips for garage-to-house conversion




by neonavy » 25/03/16, 11:34

Hello,
You did not answer one of my questions:
What is the difference in price and efficiency with equal area between double and triple glazing?

In addition, you have the merits of external insulation, but I have some details (below) that disturb me and for which I would like to have some details on how to solve them?
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Re: Heating tips for garage-to-house conversion




by dede2002 » 25/03/16, 14:37

Hello,

The current double glazing "Ar-FE" (argon + low emissivity) has a heat loss of 1.1 Watt per square meter and per degree.
Triple glazing is about 0.7 W * m2 * °.
The difference is about 0.4 W * m2 * °, amha it is interesting for a house minergie or passive, it would have to do the calculation compared to other losses (walls, roof, etc).
Although the triple glazing is heavier, so you need a frame and hinges more robust.

For comparison, a single glazing allows more than 5 W * m2 * ° to pass.
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Re: Heating tips for garage-to-house conversion




by neonavy » 26/03/16, 00:18

dede2002 wrote:Hello,

The current double glazing "Ar-FE" (argon + low emissivity) has a heat loss of 1.1 Watt per square meter and per degree.
Triple glazing is about 0.7 W * m2 * °.
The difference is about 0.4 W * m2 * °, amha it is interesting for a house minergie or passive, it would have to do the calculation compared to other losses (walls, roof, etc).
Although the triple glazing is heavier, so you need a frame and hinges more robust.

For comparison, a single glazing allows more than 5 W * m2 * ° to pass.


Ok, thanks for the info on efficiency, but what is the price difference at m2?
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