Solar or insulation? ecological and economical comparison

Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ... short thermal comfort. Insulation, wood energy, heat pumps but also electricity, gas or oil, VMC ... Help in choosing and implementation, problem solving, optimization, tips and tricks ...
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79323
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 11043




by Christophe » 01/07/13, 19:33

MB wrote: "What has the government done over the past ten years to promote the production of renewable energy?"


If the governments had to make opinions of the people, they would use the referendum or polls much more often (not just before the elections ...) !!

To answer you, better what? Promote the production of renewable energy or reduce the consumption of fossil energy?

I think I know the "right" answer ... after that depends on the point of view: that of the economist is not that of the econologist ...
0 x
User avatar
chatelot16
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6960
Registration: 11/11/07, 17:33
Location: Angouleme
x 264




by chatelot16 » 01/07/13, 19:59

better what? Promote the production of renewable energy or reduce the consumption of fossil energy?

why choose? both at a time

but subsidizing the photovoltaic in any way, did it favor it?

it benefited those who had the means ... and worse it benefited crooks pushing customers to borrow for too expensive material not profitable

to really favor photovoltaics, that will allow EDF to buy electricity at a normal price without additional costs! to let anyone install what they want according to their means
0 x
User avatar
Superform
Éconologue good!
Éconologue good!
posts: 294
Registration: 09/11/04, 14:00

Re: It's too easy to make complicated




by Superform » 02/07/13, 09:00

C moa wrote:
For my part, when I returned to my house, we had a consumption of 1400 kg / year LPG (identical to the previous owner). I followed the advice of a thermal engineer (without thermal camera by the way) and today, we consume between 750 and 800 kg / year of LPG (we have a wood stove too and it does not consume much ).
Given the soaring oil prices, our work was quickly amortized and our boiler is aging slowly.



ditto here, gas heating
64.5% reduction in consumption in 5 years:
- boiler change
- roof insulation (partial, I still have 30m² to insulate)
- change of window and entrance door
- wood stove (free wood)
and 2 ° rise in ambient temperature ...
0 x
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79323
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 11043

Re: It's too easy to make complicated




by Christophe » 02/07/13, 09:09

C moa wrote:we need to create an indicator of energy efficiency and evaluate our public policies (housing and industrial) on that.


It seems to me that this exists within the framework of a European law and with regard to CO2 (and other GHGs): every year, member countries must submit a "report on their emissions" ...

Gold which says CO2 says consumption of fossil energy, therefore indirectly efficiency (with service rendered equivalent ... obviously there are other factors like the current economic regression ...)
0 x
C moa
I posted 500 messages!
I posted 500 messages!
posts: 704
Registration: 08/08/08, 09:49
Location: Algiers
x 9

Re: It's too easy to make complicated




by C moa » 02/07/13, 09:55

Christophe wrote:Gold which says CO2 says consumption of fossil energy, therefore indirectly efficiency (with service rendered equivalent ... obviously there are other factors like the current economic regression ...)

In fact, I was talking specifically about energy efficiency (annual GDP / GHG produced for example) in order to take production into account. Without this, it is difficult (and ultimately unnecessary) to compare gross GHG production between two countries.
It's like a car, to say that we consumed 10 l of GB and another 20 without having the number of km does not allow us to compare the efficiency of these two vehicles. To go a little further, we could even consider that a vehicle that consumes 12l / 100km while another consumes only 8l / 100km is not necessarily more energy-consuming if we consider their occupancy rate for example (vehicle 1 complete vs vehicle 2 carrying 1 person).
0 x
It is difficult to single !!!
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79323
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 11043




by Christophe » 02/07/13, 09:59

Ah well you talk about the energy intensity there, or rather carbon intensity?

Found 2 subjects on this subject:

https://www.econologie.com/forums/petrole-et ... t5022.html

https://www.econologie.com/forums/intensite- ... t4885.html

Astonishing reminder: the energy intensity of India is higher than that of France ...
0 x
C moa
I posted 500 messages!
I posted 500 messages!
posts: 704
Registration: 08/08/08, 09:49
Location: Algiers
x 9




by C moa » 02/07/13, 18:22

Christophe wrote:Ah well you talk about the energy intensity there, or rather carbon intensity?

I have read the two documents well but I am not sure that it corresponds to what I meant.

To get to the bottom of my thinking, I would take the example of an economist whose name I forgot :D .
Overall, she compared the growth of countries to agricultural systems. A field of corn or wheat on one side and a forest on the other.
On the one hand, you need a lot of intrans and you have a growth certainly fast but which is fragile. In the event of a strong gale, falling hail or a fire, you can lose everything quickly without hope of rebirth unless you clean everything and give in intrans in quantity to rebuild everything.
On the other side, the forest, we see very weak growth year after year but this growth is solid and above all it hardly needs any intrans, mainly rain water and sun since layer by layer , all the waste of some making food for others and each element of the system (fauna and flora) having a very important role but well distributed from the root to the wild boar through the squirrel and the doe (there has no unemployed : Cheesy: ).
Of course, there must be regulatory bodies (or vigilance) such as the forest office which regulates the trees to be felled, gamekeepers who limit the proliferation of certain animals and firefighters to monitor and protect the forests from the risks of 'fire but overall, it takes events much more important than a strong gale or a fall of hail to destroy everything. In addition, we all know that in the event of a fire, for example, the forest will rebuild quickly practically without help and fairly quickly we will no longer see any stigma of the fire.

She wanted to apply this principle to the world economy and her point was to say (I hope to transpose it): Why work hard to grow a fragile system when, well organized, a system can be solid and sustainable even when 'he has weak growth ??

Hence my idea of ​​"energy efficiency", which could also translate into how to produce as much or more with less intrans (I have the same comfort in my house with less LPG). It's really about making sure we're using our resources (not just fossils for that matter) properly while getting people to work. It's good for the planet and good for jobs. For example, players in waste recycling have created many more jobs over the past 10 years than those in landfill and incineration. We improve employment, we improve our trade balance (drop in imports of certain products such as paper, metals ...), we reduce the circuits "from mine to factory" ....

I don't know if it's a legend but I've always heard that VW designs its vehicles so that it can recycle at least 80% once it reaches the end of its life (in chains created and maintained by VW of course ).
0 x
It is difficult to single !!!
EricN418
I learn econologic
I learn econologic
posts: 11
Registration: 27/09/13, 17:52




by EricN418 » 31/10/13, 12:08

Hello everyone, sorry to dig up a subject subject but I didn't want to create a subject when several are already talking about it.

I saw some tables on various subject on the comparisons between insulators, however are they still topical? There has been no noise around the wadding lately, I suppose innovations but it is an area that I know very badly and my favorite site is not talkative on the subject.

I turn to you, econologists, what are the best insulators according to you to insulate roofs, attics, walls and floors?
0 x
User avatar
I Citro
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 5129
Registration: 08/03/06, 13:26
Location: Bordeaux
x 11




by I Citro » 31/10/13, 12:30

It depends on what we mean by best:
- insulating performance
- performance / price ratio
- better balance in gray energy or "renewable" insulation
- without impact on health, not harming the inhabitants, no thermos effect, breathable, no VOC, no radioactivity, ...

And then there are the technical constraints of implementation ...
- Do we want to insulate from the inside (thermal bridges)?
- or from the outside (weather protection)?
- what thickness can we use?
0 x
User avatar
chatelot16
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6960
Registration: 11/11/07, 17:33
Location: Angouleme
x 264




by chatelot16 » 31/10/13, 12:53

it's easy to compare physical performance ... the problem is the price subject to the whim of trade

glass wool and rock wool are found everywhere at low prices, which makes its use the most economical, even in cases where technically it would not be the most suitable

polyurethane foam is best when you want to insulate with the smallest thickness, even if you have to put a lot more expensive than glass wool

polystyrene is a little less good than polyurethane but of more reasonable price

polyurethane and polystyrene have the disadvantage of being naturally combustible, can be treated fireproof, but more expensive and just meets the standard, but not completely non-combustible

cellulose wadding ? I do not understand why we say that it is ecological: it is an organic product therefore which burns and which rots: therefore it must be treated chemically: boron salt solves the problem as bine against fire as against rot. .. will know what happened in the head of some officials to ban boron and imposed the ammonium salt, almost as effective ... except that the ammonium decomposes when it is too hot and humid, and fill the ammonia house!

I can not understand ! every chemist knows that all ammonium products always smell of ammonia
0 x

 


  • Similar topics
    Replies
    views
    Last message

Back to "Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ..."

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 317 guests