anti-renewables heat pump? Disadvantages and advantages

Heating, insulation, ventilation, VMC, cooling ... short thermal comfort. Insulation, wood energy, heat pumps but also electricity, gas or oil, VMC ... Help in choosing and implementation, problem solving, optimization, tips and tricks ...
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anti-renewables heat pump? Disadvantages and advantages




by Christophe » 08/11/07, 15:06

The title is a bit aggressive but I am getting sick of seeing heat pumps presented as renewable energy sources! : Evil:

It is not one and here's why!

Then conditions the pump motor is powered by a renewable source you (PV, solar stirling ...), it is simply untrue to talk energy 100% renewable or it must say renewable 1-1 / COP or 100-100 / COP%! Thus, an average COP of 3 give renewable heat pump 2 / 3 or 66%! The third or% being electricity network, it rarely renewable!

Warning, this reasoning is true for solar systems but also the COP them vary between 70 and 100 and may be more ... Indeed 10m² (thus 10 recoverable 000W about when the sun is there, so that the pump runs) with a circulator and a regu consuming 100W it gives a COP of 100 (yes to compare 3 to 5 given by the PAC ...) ...In the case of solar, the% of non-renewable quickly becomes insignificant ... but not in the case of CAP

Some points of reflection for those who "hesitate" on the choice of their heating currently:

A) from an oil boiler with a heat pump, your electric bill may be multiplied by ... surprise! We understand better the pub made by EdF and sellers of electricity for this solution!

-> Not economical

B) If your electricity is produced from coal or oil, the overall performance will be worse CO2 with a light fuel oil boiler efficiency of thermal power plants, transmission losses and COP of your CAP.

-> Surely not ecological

C) If your electricity is nuclear, you certainly decrease your energy bill (but pay your taxes in nuclear anyway) but you fund maintained and the revival of the French nuclear fleet.

-> ecological?

D) Maintenance costs are high and adding to your electricity bill: 2 300 to 2 € all year!

-> Not economical

E) The return on investment (for renovation) is usually 10 to 20 years without correction of the electricity price rise. Work (horizontal ground-water) are quite substantial in case of renovation, generally impossible financially.

-> Risky

F) The performance data by installers are generally the best performance ... laboratory (commes consumption data by auto manufacturers rarely achieved in real life ...)

-> Risky

G) Do you know a lot of fridges that last 30 years? A heat pump is a complex system with moving parts and fluids that can "wear out" ... This goes against a well-known adage of building professionals: the simpler it is the longer it lasts . I'm not even talking about Chinese PACs that are coming to the market ...

-> Risky

H) For horizontal sensor, the deposit is not infinite since you cool your garden ... in some cases ca ... can be annoying when there is snow cover for example! Geothermal energy, surface, is an indirect solar energy! The volume average calorific value of the land is equivalent to the water ... doing your calculations before you ...

-> Risky

I) A bit daring but I dare: what are the consequences on biodiversity in your garden if the T ° of the land is reduced by 10 ° C?

To end on good points there still are some advantages to the CAP:

A) In the event of a vertical deposit (drawing from the water table), the hot spring is much more constant and this eliminates a significant cost of earthworks and the inconvenience of exhaustion of the deposit ... but to make a vertical collection, it must be "well" placed.

B) Compared to conventional convectors éconologiquement PACs are much more efficient (yet happy) ... but the cost of return on investment is very important (convectors € 30, 200 ball to an equipped house for € 2000 ... it makes 10 000 € under a small heat pump ... and 10 000 € ca ... actually kwh)

C) Allows low temperature heating with "overall" efficiency of the higher system.

D) Improved overall performance quite easily with a PAC Inverter (hot + cold), but if and only if replacing electric heaters!

Warning: Never having used a PAC at home, I hope that some of my "prejudices" are false ... Correct me please :)

Edit: article https://www.econologie.com/chauffage-the ... -4361.html
Last edited by Christophe the 30 / 06 / 11, 14: 04, 4 edited once.
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by Christophe » 08/11/07, 16:42

I think the choice of CAP is also some pride : it "looks" like high technology and the name rocks ... in short, it's classy and it titillates the self-esteem of the style buyer:

Look at the class I heat myself "for free" thanks to geothermal energy ...


Just the term geothermal energy is more "classy" than solar or wood ...

Character I reason not like (sorry ...) I prefer a deom wood boiler that looks like nothing but is super simple, robust and effective ... less risk of bored and 0 maitenance ...

https://www.econologie.com/forums/installati ... t3494.html
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by gmac » 08/11/07, 16:48

Moué finally in use, this is not quite the same.

Speaking only from the aspect of convenience:

PAC: no chore of wood, no ash removal, no storage of wood to be expected .... Possibility of "cooling off" in summer.

I totally understand the CAP choice notament if the ground is suitable (collection of water). BTW this choice parrait me more suitable for new construction and the renovation.
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by Christophe » 08/11/07, 16:57

gmac wrote:Moué finally in use, this is not quite the same.

Speaking only from the aspect of convenience:

PAC: no chore of wood, no ash removal, no storage of wood to be expected .... Possibility of "cooling off" in summer.


The agreement ... as the electric 100% or heating fuel ... but need to know what you want ... burn uranium, oil or wood?

The first 2 are not renewable ... c'est ca I criticize above all: to present geothermal energy as a renewable ...

gmac wrote:I totally understand the CAP choice notament if the ground is suitable (collection of water). BTW this choice parrait me more suitable for new construction and the renovation.


On tablecloth yes, that removes disadvantages ... but even for new construction, the prices are quite prohibitive ... 15 to 30 000 € of "additional cost" ... ah but I forgot: there are the credits of 'taxes ... : Cheesy:
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by gmac » 08/11/07, 17:06

yep, the tax credit allows you to artificially lower the cost of installation.

some knowledge come and installation has cost them about € 15 000, credit deducted for a new home 140 m² (capture table).

Most people are not ready to make concessions in terms of comfort to be more "green".
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by Christophe » 08/11/07, 17:10

Uh ... is it possible to ask them for their electricity bills as far as you know? I am curious to see the reality in comparison to the "theory" ...

It would be nice to average species (kWhe / m².year staff) ...
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by PITMIX » 08/11/07, 18:20

hi Christophe
As you know I am doing my research project on heat pumps and I also very much agree with you.
The geothermal heat pump must not be part of the machines using renewable energies.
Using a thermal source to directly heat the home is a geothermal principle that can be considered as renewable energy.
But the constant use heat from the earth to get a good Cop on a machine that is not renewable energy.
Because in this case, a boiler also uses renewable energy, air.
The heat pump is fashionable because it allows to save on the electricity bill for those using electric heaters.
Except that the prices right now are totally extravagant and do not allow profitable.
The only way to get an economy that's when benefits from attractive pricing on equipment and a very low blow installation.
We must not forget that the heat pump is a complex and fragile system. In case of failure the price of labor to a refrigeration is very important.

Currently I use gas to heat my home.
I privilègié refrigeration and therefore relative to a common citizen regarding rates, and labor is blackjack.
Yet I hesitate to install a CAP home.
The off-peak electric Kwh price is almost equivalent to the gas tariff.
With good insulation of the house and a good control of the boiler did not think I spend more with a boiler with a PAC.
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Re: Heat pump or pump shit? And disadvantages before




by bham » 08/11/07, 18:42

Christophe wrote:A) If the vertical field (depletion in groundwater) the hot spring is more constant and this removes a significant cost earthmoving and the disadvantage of the exhaustion of the deposit ... but to make a vertical catchment, it is necessary to be "well" placed.

Regarding the cost, no drilling is most expensive. In the next village, a guy just made a geothermal drilling probes 3 or rather, of a diameter of each 10cm about. In principle two are sufficient, one for pumping and one for the return, but the flow was not enough, they made a 3è all 3 from a depth of 99m! Cost: about € 15000! without 30% subsidy.
With any luck, ie a shallower layer and a vacuum system, not sensors, the cost obviously not fall ill but remains higher than that of an earth.
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by gmac » 08/11/07, 18:48

Christophe wrote:Uh ... is it possible to ask them for their electricity bills as far as you know? I am curious to see the reality in comparison to the "theory" ...

It would be nice to average species (kWhe / m².year staff) ...


I know the answer to one of them.

He told me less than 400 electricity € with a pump that turns a few hours a day (mostly at night).

For now, this is not an average since the installation has just one year. For the amount I trust him, he is accountable ...

If these figures are accurate, it's a product that is quickly profitable (I speak of a new construction, 15 000 € is not much more expensive than installing gas, oil or wood boiler)
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by Christophe » 08/11/07, 18:48

15 000 € drilling !! Didiou!

But inevitably a hole at 100m does not surprise me ... I hope that the "primary" circuit is in closed circuit if not I do not imagine the pumping costs as much to screw a convector : Mrgreen:

Frankly 100m to make a hole to be c ... ... uh sorry motivated by geothermal! Unless ca either water in 40 ° C so that then this is the jackpot ...

In Alsace the water table is less than 20 m ... mostly between 5 and 10 ... See: http://www.aprona.net/pdf/documentation/a4nappe.pdf

So I do not think your example is indicative of the way of geothermal drilling ...

ps: thank you Pitmix for these details of a PROFESSIONAL (which I did not know before ... you may have already said on the forum but I can not follow everything ... : Oops: ) Ah ... if all the pros were also honnète ... the world would be better!

By comparison against not understand your peak hours and gas ... with a convector ok but a CAP?

If you still have on hand your final project study? If you want I can put it on econo?
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